Rousseau

Slow day at work...?

I will trust watching a player live 20 times to make an assessment before I will believe Youtube clips and radar stats. Perhaps the FIFA game-playing generation want to believe stats are everything, its not for me and in no way beats watching a player live in the ground, seeing what they do on and off the ball, how they make decisions, how they read the game, how they react to situations. None of those things are covered in stats, but they give you a far better idea of a players worth to the team than watching on tv, or reviewing their stats alone.

No statistician has ever said we don't have to observe a player in action, I was merely contesting your view that "eyes don't lie". There are numerous philosophical and psychological studies that prove that our eyes deceive us.

I've not played a Football Manager game in my life.

You seem to be suggesting that stats have no place, which I think is really naive and quite ignorant. I'm glad some of the most prestigious clubs think differently, and can only hope Rangers are making strides towards implementing the same.

Former World Cup winner Vogts was Scotland manager from January 2002 to November 2004, handing international debuts to 40 players.

 

wow, that is quite a stat!

It is quite a stat, but I would probably prefer that to sticking with the same select few all the time.

Just goes to prove the old saying about statistics.

 

In football, statistics are a good talking point, but the eyes dont lie, and that guy is not a top level football player, not in a million "radars".

That's patently untrue.

TheSPFLRadar produced this radar of Windass, where the edges are the top performer for that stat in the league:

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As you can see it's well rounded -- he says underneath that that's similar to Sinclair, who gets praise left, right and centre -- but clearly he can't, or will not, cross the ball. His dribbling, key chain passes p/90 and open play assists p/90 is pretty much the best in the league.

Pedro?

He was mostly injured under Warburton IIRR.

Personally I don't think any of the players knew what they were doing under Pedro.

The stats are for PC's tenure, so... we can file that under PC-bad...

Just read that "50% of Windass’ Key Passes have been Scoring Chances. That’s a similar rate to Ali Crawford, Scott Sinclair, & Hibs’ Brandon Barker."

He's doing something right, but I do agree there is something missing. I can't quite put my finger on it. I like the guy -- I think there is a player there -- and the stats suggest he's doing something right, but then again he isn't quite scoring or assisting as much as I'd like from a midfield/wide player.

Yes, how many 90 mins has he played? Guy next to me is always saying that he cannot last a game.

Also I wish he had his fathers heart/toughness not his mothers.

According to transfermarkt, he's played 835 minutes in 11 league games, which is an average of 75 minutes per game.

He works hard though, doesn't he? It's often these forward players that get subbed anyway.

I missed that completely. Could you explain it a wee bit ?

Well... theRangersReport, for example, tracks many stats -- Key Passes, Secondary Shot Assists (the pass to the guy that assists), Establishing Passes (the third shot assist), Expected Assists, Scoring Chance Key Passes, & xG (expected goals) -- and Windass is one of the highest performers in these stats of our current squad. He's actually top in Key Passes on Scoring Chances, which means he's the top player in terms of the creation of our scoring chances.

Whether you like these stats or not, it highlights the fact that Windass consistently plays a key role in the passing network that leads to shots. He just needs to be more clinical, or greedy -- the stats suggest that he prefers to pass than take a shot or play someone in; the latter I've been annoyed at.

The second part was that his xG (expected Goals - the goals he should be scoring) is actually higher than his actual goals scored, so either he's a really really bad finisher or unlucky; he is due a few goals because he gets into good areas.

It doesn't mean he's the answer, just that of our current team he's one of our better creators.

All the stats suggest that Windass is a key creator for us, but just not directly: it's build-up play, rather than direct assists and goals -- although his xG suggested he was due a goal or two, which hopefully continues.

Wikipedia doesn't have him as ever playing for Rangers -- only agreed to play, I think.

If it is McInnes - I’d rather see Murty as his assistant than Docherty.

I'd prefer Cathro...

David Moyes in talks to replace Bilic at West Ham

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11685/11114546/slaven-bilics-west-ham-future-to-be-decided-in-48-hours-with-david-moyes-in-talks-to-replace-him

Suffice to say...

No big surprise really, but I did expect Alves to come in...

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Potter's Ostersunds have been rather impressive with their 5-2-3, which reminds me of another superb young coach in Nagelsmann, but he has only managed one club; I'd need to see if he could replicate it, or see it working at a higher level before considering him for Rangers -- although, they're doing well in the Europa League so it seems like it can be replicated at a higher level.

Interestingly....

There's an article in todays National which kinda goes over this thread. The sub header reads "Kenny Miller found himself in a power struggle".

That kinda sums up the situation....No player should EVER be in a power struggle with their manager....

I missed the National today. Was it written by that guy who writes in broad Scots or by the guy who's a dog?

We've lost the debate if you're using the National as a source...

It's worthy of discussion, that's what we're doing. My contention is there isn't a discipline problem, there was a management problem. The OP stated pretty clearly he felt there was a discipline problem at Rangers in his opening post and why weren't players being punished.

 

No, being sent to train with the youths or on your own is a punishment. A player being dropped for form reasons is kept in the 1st team squad. An assistant manager or coach is tasked with building the player back up, either through tough love or encouragement or one on one training. That's how it works at almost every club.

 

Look at what actually happened with Miller. After another poor performance against Celtic there were reports in the media that the club had held a meeting with all the players and apparently PC had criticised the UK ones and given Dorrans in particular a hard time for giving Miller the captain's armband when he came on. Is that the kind of thing that should make its way into the papers? No, it shouldn't. At the same time is it the kind of thing the manager should have said after the Celtic game? It struck me as totally missing the issues the team had. He then dropped Miller and sent him with the youths to London. The clear insinuation was he blamed Miller for the story. He might even have been correct, who knows. So all of a sudden the support are blaming Miller for undermining the manager, for disrupting the dressing room and for the dark nights. But there is still no evidence that a. the story was wrong or b. that Miller was the source of it. It was a further 3 weeks before before Miller's agent expressed his anger that his client was being blamed for something he said he didn't do and being punished by the club for it. Is that ill-discipline or frustration at bad management?

 

Now if the incident with Miller was a one off it could be written off as a clash for which there can only be one winner; the manager. But it wasn't a one off, Pedro was falling out with players, the media and with opposition managers with incredible regularity.

 

There's no actual evidence we've a discipline problem.

I said "out of contention", not dropped through poor form. If he's been punished then surely something has happened. It is a manager's prerogative to do as he see's fit.

The veracity of the story is irrelevant -- as you say, it should not be leaked -- so the fact that it was implies someone wanted it to be and that's a disciplinary problem, to me. To be honest, you seem to say so yourself, with "Is that the kind of thing that should make its way into the papers? No, it shouldn't." If there are stories being leaked, then there is a disciplinary problem.

He wasn't "falling out with players, the media and with opposition managers with incredible regularity"; he had clearly fallen out with Miller, but the rest is propaganda and rumour: he said MOH wasn't his type of player, which is normal -- perhaps not in a public way but its difficult to avoid that when so-called 'journalists' are asking specific questions looking for a 'Rangers-bad' story; he's not criticised any manager directly from what I recall, it was fanned by the media, and then other managers were picking fights with him; and I'm glad he was dismissive of the media, because they are a joke.

Clearly there is evidence; it's too regular to be otherwise, and not specific to PC as it happened under MW and Ally too. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you can't see it.

I would be content with DM, mainly because I suspect he would get us 2nd, and we'd be a organised outfit winning games regularly. However, I doubt we'll be challenging them any time soon, and the football will be brutal.

I think you are right about the academy

I was thinking more about a higher level for him and threw that in with Murty in my mind

I was talking shite

usual for me

Fixed that for you.

McInnes ,Murty,JJ, ideal because IMO.

1) McInnes Rangers background.

2) Murty knows how club is run and is an upcoming coach.

3) JJ again club background and knowledge of European scene.

Rangers men, great, but what can they actually do in terms of coaching? Do you want to watch the type of football Aberdeen play?

I'm biased as my kid gets private coaching from him - but we could do a whole lot worse than bringing Kevin Thomson into the 1st team picture at Rangers. A winner's mentality who would accept nothing short of best efforts from anyone.

 

I've been speaking to him a fair bit about our plight recently and, without getting into the details of our conversations, he has very good insight, and he understands our club and the standards that should be expected.

Your kid gets private coaching from him? I didn't know...

I agree: he'd be a great addition to the coaching staff. Good player in his day; loved the guy.

Hats off to all in this thread. Best there's been for ages.

I'm knackered...

I'm not basking in any glory Rousseau and I'm not saying anything I've not been saying for months.

I agree, which is why I said you were more than entitled to do so!

My only criticism of Pedro is that results weren't good enough, had the side been winning every match he could have sent Kenny Miller to Timbuktu with the under 11s and no one would have complained. It's a results business, that's what he's judged on. In my opinion focussing on apparent discipline issues is to miss the point. Do we think there are no unhappy players at Celtic just now? Of course there are but because their side is winning regularly any complaints are ignored or better managed in-house. My point is some Rangers fans have already decided we do have a discipline problem despite there being no actual evidence of one. I assume it helps frame how Pedro was let down instead of simply grasping the nettle that Pedro was a poor manager of Rangers and should never have been appointed in the first place. Where is the evidence that any player thinks they bigger or more important than the manager, I hear this narrative but it's based on nothing but supposition.

I agree results were not good enough -- I stated so -- but results have nothing to do with the disciplinary problem, perceived or otherwise. It should be kept in-house, but surely the fact that it was not suggests there is a problem, or at least an issue worthy of discussion? Highlighting a perceived disciplinary issue in no way negates the fact that PC was a failure.

A player being dropped is "normal" but making an example of them by sending them away with the youths is not. No other manager, in nearly 20 years as professional, has ever accused Miller of being a disruptive influence, indeed quite the contrary. I repeat Pedro was a poor manager of Rangers, he struggled to manage his players and he didn't manage to get results or even performances required. There is no more criticism of him required, that's more than enough.

I think it's quite common for a player out of contention to be sent to train (a) on their own, or (b) with the reserves/youths. I've seen several instances of it.

A quick google search suggests Miller has had issues in the past: he's asked to leave several clubs; he threatened to quit Them -- not too bad... --; he had a bust up with Dave Jones at Wolves because he wasn't playing; and there was a story about Miller being annoyed at being dropped by MW. Of course, that is contrasted with several glowing reviews about his professionalism and leadership. But, it's not "never".

Again, just because he was a "poor manager" doesn't mean there wasn't a disciplinary problem, or at least an issue. It's not specific to PC. The OP was suggesting a wider problem not specific to even Rangers.

I only responded because I felt you were trying to criticise PC again, when, IMO, he's not done too much wrong. The only criticism necessary is that results were not good enough. I would expect, and would demand, a manager to drop a player and removes them from the team if they are a disruptive influence. I don't want players that think they are bigger than the club.

I don't think Rangers specifically have a discipline problem....I think it is throughout the game. Players believing they are bigger/more important than the manager.

If they don't like a managers decision, they squeal to the press....

Apologies. I agree it's not Rangers, specifically: there is a growing problem in the game in general. Unfortunately, it's down to money: cheaper to sack manager than a squad!

That's interesting, why?

Firstly, I don't think McClaren -- thanks dB! -- is the answer; far from it.

However, I do think he's a good coach, who has had some good spells in the past: Twente, Derby and I had forgot Middlesbrough. You mentioned Clarke 's coaching career before, winning PL titles at Chelsea etc.: McClaren won several at Man Utd. His football -- on the occasion that he is able to get it implemented -- is actually rather good; Twente and Derby played some nice stuff.

Moyes is just brutal to me. His sides have played poor football, and he's only really had success at Everton, and maybe Preston. His stock has just plummeted! Moyes is a complete No-No.