JohnMc

It can work in terms of increasing his value. If he can play a successful season in English League 1 for example that makes him more sellable for the club, particularly if the feeling is he's not going to make our first team. The same applies with Lowry. If he has a decent season with Hearts, we might still decide to sell him next summer, but he's got more value to us with 30 odd SPFL first team games under his belt. I think we also have a duty of care with young players. It's a short career, if they're not good enough for our first team then this at least allows them to begin building a career elsewhere. Lewis Mayo is a recent example. His loan spells allowed him to gain experience and he's now a regular with Killie. That's a decent standard for a player of his age, if he can keep progressing then a move to a bigger SPFL club or even an English Championship club is a possibility, I'd hope we have a sell-on percentage or similar in place with Kilmarnock.

I'm not sure it makes much difference to TV contracts. I take your point about atmosphere but the TV companies care about viewers, so in some ways no away fans probably suits them. The simple truth is every Rangers/Celtic match is on TV now, so supporters can see it. It's not like my formative days when if you wanted to watch it you had to attend. I feel sorry for the completist Rangers supporter who attends every match, but I can't see any argument for allowing Celtic support the entire Broomloan these days. If they have genuine safety concerns, and I'm not sure they do, then it's police Scotland they want to speak with.

He wasn't a fictional character, William 'Bill The Butcher' Poole was an actual person and a New York gang leader. It was Daniel Day Lewis's image they used from the Scorcese film, but to be fair they'd be hard pushed to find a photo of the real guy, and if they had we'd have spent 5 pages of this thread wondering who the hell was the guy on the UB banner.

I'd never heard of the St Bartholomew's Day massacre until now. Liberté, égalité, fraternité indeed.

Richard Winton is a Dundee Utd fan, he's been a jobbing journo in Scotland for a while. He was deputy at the Herald I think, but then everyone gets that gig eventually.

I don't think he's a fan, is he? I mean I'm sure he wants us to win currently, but I doubt he'd much interest in us prior to this.

William Poole (Bill The Butcher) was of course killed by his actual Irish immigrant adversary in real life and also his fictional one in the Gangs Of New York film. Daniel Day Lewis is of Anglo-Irish background, his grandfather was a Church of Ireland minister who had pretensions to aristocracy apparently. I didn't see the game so I've only seen pictures of the display. It's visually spectacular, there's a ton of work goes into creating something like that, it's really very impressive. I won't pretend to understand ultra culture, I'm too old now. For obvious reasons he wouldn't have been my first choice of character for the banner, but then I don't think it's aimed at me. I'm not sure why they have that Andy Capp type character either. Is that open razors on the banner? Many young men seem drawn top these type of characters, the popularity of Peeky Blinders is another example of the romanticising of violent thuggery society seems to enjoy. The 'nativi' thing the Milan fans use a slightly more political point, regarding 'natives' and immigrants. I'd be pretty uncomfortable if the Union Bears went down that road.

I've seen the goals only, WBD, so have only got what i've heard and read to go by. Thanks for your take on it.

Due to bad work planning I spent all but 6 minutes of last night's match in the car traversing the roads between Buchan and Glasgow with Radio Scotland Sportsound as my company. The pre-match stuff was fine, Steven Thomson, Neil McCan and Tom English weren't the worst, it was balanced and there was a decent interview with a Dutch journalist who gave some insights into PSV. They also interviewed a Rangers podcast guy, maybe This Is Ibrox(?), who was calm and articulate. Tom English threw him a couple of snide questions about fan media and being able to criticise players or the club, but it wasn't anything the guy shouldn't have expected, and frankly something I've thought about too. I then proceeded to listen to Rangers get hammered as wave after wave of PSV attack was launched and Rangers struggled to get possession. Liam McLeod described a game that doesn't seem to match the one my son, some friends and the posters on here watched. Dessers work rate and contribution is being complimented on here, while on the tranny he was isolated and ineffective. Cantwell was lucky to stay on the pitch apparently, something that's perplexed most of the bluenoses I've spoken to this morning. It was the crowd noise that told me we'd scored, the commentary was surprisingly muted at that point, Radio Scotland don't celebrate (Rangers?) goals like those Spanish or Brazilian commentators, that's for sure. Our defence were being overran on the radio, while here they're being complimented as our best players. It's a shame the commentator wasn't a bit more 'even', as the show was definitely trying to be.

In my formative days we'd get an entire end of Parkhead and some of the Main Stand. Those were great days, a right of passage for every match going Rangers supporter. Times change however. The police have more power now (to much I'd say), season tickets dominate now and of course every Old Firm is televised live now. Probably the biggest change though is the two clubs do not get on at board level anymore. Having attended the 3-0 home victory at the end of last season I can't say I missed them, even though we horsed them and it would have been fun to have some captive to mock. I'm comfortable with no away fans while the games are televised. It's not the same as going to the game, but so much has changed about football over the years this just feels like another thing.

It's pure conjecture on my part, I've no inside information or anything. I don't think football can or will continue in it's current form. The financial gulf between a handful of clubs and everyone else is growing. So either the bubble bursts, and there's no sign of that happening, or the structure changes. The changes to the Champion's League coming next season (I think?) are the start of a proper European League, and a sop to the clubs who looked at breaking away to form a Super League a year or so ago. The rich and powerful clubs want change and they usually get what they want in the end. It also wouldn't be a huge surprise if Saudi sides started looking for a bit of international club football. Look what happened in golf, they are wealthy enough to do almost anything. There's a turf war between UEFA and FIFA too. Perhaps a Saudi funded international club competition might get FIFA backing, as long as the right people are looked after. Whatever happens it's not sustainable for us to remain playing in Scotland. On the opening day of the season Celtic played Ross County. County's entire turnover is less than the Celtic manager's annual salary. How can they compete? It simply leads to negative football where clubs play for a draw at best and no one wants to watch that. We're not alone, around 10 leagues in Europe face similar issues and they all have a vote at UEFA and FIFA. A change to the league set up is inevitable I feel, and I think it'll come sooner rather than later.

I know, we were regularly out thought and out played by European sides with smaller budgets than us under Smith's first reign, second time round he takes us to a final with a squad assembled on far less than he had in the 90s. Go figure.

You could argue the first two tiers are always in the Champion's League, but it's arbitrary, Bournemouth and Brentford are operating in a different financial planet from us. Strong, clear leadership is so important for Rangers just now. Change to domestic football is coming I think.

C'mon, slating players is what we do, what would we talk about otherwise, we're Rangers fans after all? There's a harsh reality I think most of us have adjusted too in recent years. That reality is we're now probably a third tier club. That's nothing to do with support, facilities, history or potential, but everything to do with money. Our spell in the Champion's League last season was a reminder of just how far behind the elite clubs we are. Even if we didn't do ourselves justice last season, the reality is our very best players struggle to get into also ran sides in the big leagues. Bassey didn't seem to have the season we all thought he would in Holland, a stronger league than Scotland's but not a top one. Let's see how he gets on at an yoyo club like Fulham. Aribo and Paterson both struggle to make the first team of relatively poor English top flight sides. We can buy players who should be the among the best in the league in their position. But they'll not be top players. There might be exceptions to that, Butland might prove to be one for example, Raskin might push on and have a very good career too, but for us we're either looking for players with potential to improve or journeyman who can do a good job at our level for a few seasons. Danilo, Lammers and Dessers fall into the latter category. Raskin, Cifuentes and Sterling into the former. I think most of us agree Raskin looks like a cracking player and had a good game the other night. But he also needlessly gave away the ball trying to make a very ambitious pass that then almost led to a Servette goal, earning him a bollocking form Tav and Goldson. The days of Gascoigne, Laudrup or De Boer playing for Rangers are long gone, maybe never to return. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy it. Plus, I slated De Boer on more than one occasion!

You're right, if Ridvan had only done those things during his Rangers career we'd all love him. But he hasn't, so, you know.

I'm not sure that is true. Bassey looked competent when he first made the team, I'm not sure any of us thought he'd go stellar on first viewing, but he looked a more than able back up. Bassey was 20 when he broke into our first team with no previous first team experience, Ridvan is 22 now with over 70 first team appearances and 6 international caps. Whatever ability he must have been showing a few seasons ago he's lost it in Glasgow. I'm not writing him off, I'm just arguing that currently Borna is the best left back at the club, Ridvan has demonstrated nothing in his appearances to suggest he should get the jersey ahead of Barasic. Best case scenario for me is we find a Turkish or Saudi team willing to take Ridvan and pay us what we spent on him and we find another young left back to challenge Borna.

Ridvan won't get a look in because he's not very good, or at least hasn't been in the matches he's featured for us. I don't think we are obsessed with 'the edges', of the 4 gilt edge chances last night, one was a move through the middle when Dessers hit the post, the other 3 were all crosses from wide. We have full backs who are good at getting forward and crossing, we were at our best last night when we created the environment where they could do that. As for last season our first goal was Colak from a Tav cross, our 2nd a fluff by their keeper and in the away leg again it was a mistake in their defence that led to our goal. Currently none of our forwards are playing particularly well, maybe that'll click before Tuesday, but I suspect it might take a little longer than that. Forwards not reading runs, misplacing passes and failing to hold up the ball forces us wide, as we keep giving up possesion in the middle.

Barasic's crossing is the best in the league and he showed again last night, with our goal, just how important that can be. Along with his willingness to overlap and attack the final third those are his strengths. As long as we play to those strengths then he's an asset to the club. If he was great defensively then he wouldn't be playing for Rangers, he'd be in Spain or England, the harsh truth is none of our defenders are top class. All have failings, Souttar was at fault for the goal, Goldson had some shaky moments, and half of our support think Tav is past it, apparently. The only way we're going to get a top class defender is if he's at the very beginning of his career or the very end. Personally I'd be happy to keep Barasic. He's the best left back at the club, but if we can bring in a better one I wouldn't shed a tear if he moved on. Ridvan isn't better, no matter how many might wish he was. Robbie Fraser doesn't look like he's going to make it with us.

Beyond a few zoomers on Twitter I've not actually read anyone sane suggest Beale might be the problem. Until this thread. A couple of defeats in pre season friendlies, one to a sports-washing financially doped PR vehicle who'll spend more on a back-up full back than we'll spend on our entire squad and the other to a club we'd expect to be on a similar level to ourselves. The Olympiacos performance was really disappointing and our next match away to a Bundesliga side will be a challenge too. Another defeat wouldn't be a big surprise. But ultimately it's about beating Kilmarnock, then Livi, then Ross County and then Celtic. I guess we'll know more by then.

We're not disagreeing. What i'm trying to get to is your (and others) intent here. It reads like criticism of Beale and fairly damning criticism at that. You seem to be suggesting that our players don't know the formations they're meant to be playing. And if they do then the formations and tactics are poor. That seems harsh to me. Surely this is simply new players who haven't yet learned their roles or found their form and existing players getting to know new colleagues?

Well, quite. But is anyone expecting a change in tactics or formation though? Isn't it just a case of waiting for the new guys to learn their jobs in our existing formation and tactics?

Surely the tactics we employed in the second half of last season, but carried out by better players, would be enough to see us qualify for the Champion's League (which we managed last season) and win the league, or at least put a proper challenge in? I mean against Celtic, under Beale, our main problem was individual errors. Won't our better players make fewer errors? Haven't we brought in better players? I thought second half of last season our tactics were pretty good, it was error prone defenders, keepers who wouldn't leave their line and goal shy forward players that cost us. What am I missing here?

My first trip to Ibrox this season, with my Dad and my 2 sons, I was looking forward to a pleasant summer evening watching Rangers fine tune our new team. There were some positives. Souttar continues to impress both as a stopper but also his ability to carry the ball out of defence. If, and I accept that's a big word in this context, he can stay fit he could have a big season ahead. Reading this thread I suspect not everyone will agree but I thought Lammers played quite well. His touch, his movement, his link up play all impressed me. He was unlucky with a chance in the second half from our best move of the game too. I think he and the players around him just need to get to know each other a bit better and he could be a really good signing. McCrorie didn't do anything wrong, he was blameless at the goal and looked comfortable in the first half. I didn't think Tav did much wrong either. He was a bit quieter going forward but his short passing and link up was decent, nothing we didn't know before of course. Raskin was comfortable, missing a bit of sharpness but he looked like he's a week or so away from the season starting, so right on course. However, the negatives far outweighed the positives. Cantwell hasn't found the form of last season, hopefully that happens soon. In a competitive match he'd have been lucky not to be sent off last night. Sima gets into good positions but doesn't yet seem to know what to do with them. His career to date suggests he doesn't score many goals, nothing I've seen so far contradicts that. So far he doesn't feel like an improvement on Kent, but it's still early days. Dessers hasn't played 90 minutes of football for us yet, I can't judge him on what I've seen. He's less mobile than I thought he'd be, for a big guy he was easily dispossessed last night, but he doesn't look fit far less match fit. Again, he needs a bit of time to bed in and find form. I liked Dowell in the previous two games, but he was a bit lost last night. Barasic is getting a lot of flack, much of it justified, but Dowell didn't do much defensively last night to help. I'm inclined to agree that Cantwell and Davies were most culpable for their first goal, but no one covered themselves in glory and the Greeks were getting a lot of joy down our left and really should have scored before hey did. This isn't news to anyone who has watched Rangers in the last few seasons, that it hasn't been addressed yet is a concern. Yilmaz reputation continues to benefit from not being Barasic, but from what I've seen before, and again last night, he's just as suspect defensively. He's not the answer. Lundstram and McLoughlin had particularly bad cameos, Matondo and Sakala had better ones. There's only one side in Scotland as good as Olympiacos, however Kilmarnock have been in Cup duty and will be sharper come kick off. There's still a lot of work for us to do.

Just me that thought Roofe looked like the best forward at the club during his 20 minute cameo? Oh for a fit Roofe all season. Thought big Lammers looked okay when he came on too. I'm sure Dessers and Sima will improve with games. Still not sure what any of you are seeing in Ridvan. Sakala brings something to the squad that currently no one else does. He's fast, he's direct, he's energetic and he can cut inside or outside. His shooting and decision making need work as does his grasp of the offside law, but I'd keep him in the squad if we can afford it. Like the look of Dowell and quietly impressed by Rice. I'm not sure how much game time he'll get this season but you wouldn't be concerned if you saw his name on our team sheet now, can't say that about many 16 year olds. Our 'homegrown' requirement for European football will be interesting this season. Assuming they're fit then Jack and Soutter are obvious. Perhaps a keeper, if McCrorie moves on then maybe Keiran Wright. Rice, Devine and Lowry probably. Yfeko won't qualify so we're into guys like Lovelace and McCausland who don't look like they're ready for the 1st team. It's a surprise to me we've not moved for some Scottish players. We could have afforded Nisbet, maybe Kenny McLean, after all we've signed every other Norwich player, maybe even James McArthur who could play the games Jack can't.

I don't know guys, feels like a lot of wishful projecting going on with Ridvan. He's not Barasic seems to be the main thing he has going for him. Ridvan didn't look like a better defender last night, or, frankly, any other time I've seen him, and Borna sets a low bar on that score. He is young(ish) and perhaps a run of games will help him find some form and confidence, but the fact he can't dislodge Barasic as our first choice left back, despite his repeated lapses, tells it's own story. We'll see...