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Posts posted by JohnMc
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Jig
in Rangers Chat
The way some of us speak about our own players has always angered and baffled me, McCulloch is just the most recent example. He's a very good professional and a very good example to young players. He's coming to the end of his career, that's all.
I've read on numerous occasions that 'he only stayed because no one else would give him the money'. Had McCulloch left and joined a League One side in England for example he'd have been on a good salary and with no transfer fee to pay he'd have a received a handsome signing-on fee.
The fact that McCall has continued to pick McCulloch tells us far more about the application and dedication of the other centre-halves at the club than it does about McCulloch.
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It's a great idea but the wrong person doing it. That's not meant as a slight to Mr Dingwall who've I've never met, simply that his profile is too high. I really don't think Ashley's lawyers will have a lot of difficulty convincing a judge that letting the owner of Follow Follow have a full list of SD shareholders might constitute a potential threat to them.
Now I don't think for two seconds it actually does, but finding a series of posts from some unhinged or simply angry poster on FF to demonstrate shouldn't be that hard and a home counties judge might agree they constitute a potential threat.
Had he got someone 'unknown' to do this it might have got a bit further. Shame, as it's a really good idea.
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So important I had to say it twice...
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Jeez, it's like an Albanian blood feud on here. In the grand scheme of people who've fucked Rangers over in the last few years Naismith's name doesn't even make the top ten, yet the antagonism he generates suggests he personally destroyed the club before ripping the picture of the Queen off the dressing room wall and defecating on the disaster memorial on his way to Merseyside.
So, honesty time. When we failed to leave administration I didn't know how I felt about the 'new club' either. For a week or so it was all up in the air and so were my feelings about the club. Would it really still be my Rangers, was the liquidation actually the end and the 'new club' simply wouldn't engender the same feelings as before? I didn't know, it had never happened before. It wasn't until that first game when I saw Ally McCoist (another who draws hatred from a section of our support so out of proportion) standing on the touchline that I knew we were okay, everything was going to be alright, we were the same. I was wrong to question it but there you go, I've made mistakes before and I'll make them again.
People go on about the press conference Naismith gave, he's pilloried for it. Here's the thing, the guy told the truth as he saw it at that time. Naismith was/is also a supporter, it was his view at the time, his view might well have changed but because he decided to explain to the support his feelings and his decision he's become a pariah. No wonder players only speak in platitudes and cliches the rest of the time, if supporters don't like your views they'll hate with a fervour normally reserved for child molesters. Bloody hell.
I also think the anger towards Naismith is partly because we recognised ourselves in him. Local boy, boyhood supporter, articulate, thoughtful and probably our most effective player. We all wanted to be Naismith, we could see the side being built around him for years to come. So when he left it hurt. It hurt far more than Whittaker leaving, he can leave everyday if he wants the useless Hibee tosser (sorry, was that anger over the top?).
We're like jilted lovers, unable to get over the beautiful girl (boy, whatever) who decided to move on. Do you carry this anger and pain around forever, do you badmouth her whenever her name comes up? Or do you let it go, write it off to experience, remember the happy times and accept that perhaps that person also knows they made a mistake.
I'd take Naismith back in a heartbeat, he's the best Scottish player of his generation, nothing else matters. He can make it up to me by scoring a hat-trick against Celtic.
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I certainly don't feel like celebrating and don't think of myself as being on any lunatic fringe. I'm not surprised he's resigned, if a professional PR company was consulted I'd be astonished if they'd have suggested anything else.
I've no insight into his reasoning, but until you've actual been in the centre of a media storm you shouldn't judge those involved. Most of us have absolutely no idea what it's like to suddenly become public property and have every aspect of our lives scrutinised, none at all. What pressure that puts on an individual, his family and friends is considerable. This wasn't going away and it wasn't going to blow over, he's done the right thing for himself, his family and his sanity in my opinion.
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That may be true, but I thought Frankie was alluding to Rangers' culture. The club, the supporters, the fact that it is seen to have a Protestant heritage are all in the sights of the media.
Surely you would agree that to destroy a culture, you must first attack and wound its Institutions? How else would you describe the media's actions over the last few years?
He may have been and I might have misunderstood him.
Chris Graham is going to feel heat from the media because he's made a number of enemies there in recent years. I don't see it as part of anything more than that. Paul Murray gets a fairly easy ride from the media because he's cultivated a number of friendships over the years. It's not rocket science.
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John, the two points I have highlighted are surprisingly weak, coming from you.
First of all, when he made that tweet he was not, nor would he conceivably be, a director of Rangers. His position at Rangers is to represent fans' viewpoints; he is not tasked with expanding the Rangers brand in the Middle East and Asia.
His response to the rantings of an islamofascist was a legitimate response that can be justified, even if it may not be something that you or I agree with or would have done, It certainly does not call into question his judgement on fan issues or indeed anything else.
In my opinion, his retweet was no more Islamophobic than Hugh Dallas' email was anti-Catholic.
Allowing him to be branded and Islamophobe, and by implication racist when there is no suggestion that he is either, would not only be shameful it would be to shoot ourselves in the foot. Chris Graham, the public face of the intelligent, erudite, measured Rangers fan is 'exposed' as a bigot and a racist - so what does that make the rest of us?
The second point about someone drawing a cartoon about the Disaster is weaker than a Mohsni clearance. There can be no comparison between a heated clash of philosophies and ideas on social media in the aftermath of a massacre that shook the West like few others, and a disaster at a sporting event. Were someone ever to mock the deaths of those fans (oh, I don't know, say some an Aberdeen or Celtic fan for example) then the only possible reason for doing so is hatred of Rangers and naked bigotry. Chants about the 66 are not sung in an attempt to ensure higher standards of health and safety at sporting events.
Retweeting a highly offensive cartoon at someone who espouses violence to prevent freedom of expression is an intellectual and valid response to that dogmatism, whether you agree with it or not.
And there is of course the obvious difference in that anyone who mocks the deaths of innocents in an accident is no more than a sociopath; those of us who mock the cancerous, medieval, mumbo-jumbo that is religion are mocking an idea only.
I didn't accuse him of Islamaphobia nor do I think he is only that sending that tweet directly to a muslim cleric demonstrated a lack of judgement. That he wasn't a director of Rangers at the time isn't really the issue but it didn't happen 20 years ago. I'm assuming he doesn't know the imam in question, in which case he chose to send something he knew would be offensive to someone he dislikes and with who he disagrees even though he's never met them. I'm sorry but how can that be viewed as anything other than inflammatory and aggressive? I was as horrified by those killings as Chris Graham but somehow I managed not to send offensive pictures to imams I've never met.
I don't feel it is a weak point, it's fairly well known that drawings of Mohamad cause varying degrees of offence to muslims, in that one he's giving someone a hand-job. That's not satire or a making a clever social point, that's just done purely to offend. How anyone can see that as anything but a lack of good judgement I don't know.
I'm not drawing any parallels between that cartoon tweet and someone making fun of the Ibrox disaster, simply making the point that claiming freedom of expression needs more thought. Aberdeen fans sing about it because they know it causes offence and outrage, exactly the same emotions that cartoon is intended to stir in an awful lot of people.
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As I replied to Andy, I understand your position and I'm glad we have some reasonable criticism of what's happened. However, I'd like to quote a post from a muslim bear on FF:
OK, he's a bear and that may impinge his judgement but I enjoyed the honesty of the post and I think we should be standing by our own under clear attack from a media who will do anything to go for us while ignoring others.
Today it's Chris these hypocrites are attacking. Tomorrow it will be all of us.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Chris Graham is being criticised because he now has a high profile position and as far as the media are concerned that makes him public property and fair game. I'm not condoning that I'm just telling it like it is. He wasn't criticised at the time because it wasn't 'newsworthy'. Rest assured had you been given the director position your Twitter feed and posts would have received heavy scrutiny.
This is only 'news' because of his position. The issue isn't what he tweeted on it's own it's that combined with his new role. Had he remained a vocal supporter alone this would never had made the light of day.
We need to be careful not to conflate two issues. Defending the cartoon and the retweeting of it directly to a muslim cleric and defending Chris Graham. Graham has made enemies in the media, that's the reality, he might be able to ride this one out but they'll come for him again if he sneezes the wrong way. I don't accept that that tomorrow it'll be all of us, most of us have never made any enemies in the media.
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Is Chris Graham getting some 'payback' for his stance towards many in the media? Undoubtedly in my opinion. When you've been as strident as he's been about reporting standards and quality you set yourself up as a target. There's revenge at play here and those who offered him the position should have seen that coming.
However that doesn't make this story on him wrong. It was an insane thing to 'tweet' and demonstrates a staggering lack of judgement, that alone should throw a question over his new role. Every right thinking person was horrified and disgusted by the Charlie Hebdo attacks but most of us didn't choose to draw something crude and deliberately provocative and send it to a Muslim cleric, whatever our view of his 'beliefs'.
There are an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, the vast majority of who would have found that drawing deeply offensive, that after all was its aim. It's all very well championing freedom of speech but that doesn't take away personal responsibility. Had someone drawn a crude cartoon deliberately mocking the Ibrox disaster how would we feel if two months later that person was made a director of a senior football club? I've a feeling we wouldn't be defending his freedom of expression.
I've no idea what Chris Graham's views are on Islam and I'd have little difficulty accepting this was a knee-jerk reaction done in the heat of the moment and with perspective he might now regret it. But he needs to say that and see what the fall out is. Either way if (and I think it highly likely) an intelligent and reasonable muslim commentator criticises him for this he'll come under huge pressure to step down.
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This thread has gone from hugely depressing to very, very funny.
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I'm pleased with this. We get an experienced manager a new voice in the changing room and training pitch, new ideas and hopefully the 'bounce' every new manager gets. McCall also knows the club and the support, he gets what it's about.
If he does well then great, his hat's in the ring for the gig permanently if he wants it, if he doesn't we're no worse off and it gives the board a few months to source and sound out a long term management team.
Welcome back wee man and the very best of luck to you.
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not for speaking to, for praising.
you could easily flip that on its head and say in one day PM managed to annoy fans even when they were in a euphoric state.
You could, or you could face the fact that a section of our support have no clue what's really important and are determined to show that. We've a lot of problems, the Daily Record are miles down that list.
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Jeez, it didn't take long for some to find something to have a go at Paul Murray about, did it.
Rangers have been fucked sideways by people actually inside the club for years and some couldn't bring themselves to criticise them. Day one and Paul Murray get's his collar felt for speaking to a newspaper. Good to see you've got your priorities right...
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Aye,but that ship has sailed now!,why continue?
Isn't Sandy Easdale still on the football board? The tide might have turned but the ship hasn't sailed just yet, we won a battle yesterday, an important one at that, but the war's not over yet.
Anyway, I've never met McMurdo junior but I met his dad an he was (is?) certainly a big bluenose, gave me two tickets free of charge once at Macdairmid Park in the old days of going to away matches with no tickets and trying to buy them from buses on the A9.
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Low cost. 26percent of all retail income and 75 percent of all shirt sponsorship.
What the fuck is high cost then.
Yip, fair point, it's not low cost forever. But until the summer it might not cost us much.
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Whilst I also think Llambias and Leach are playing games and doing their masters bidding I'm less concerned about it now. If it was me and I found £10 mil in the bank come Friday evening I'd use it to rebuild the club. It's a very low cost loan as long as we meet the repayment terms, and I doubt anyone else is going to lend us money as things stand even with new directors in place.
If that means keeping Llambias and Leach on the board so be it, they'll be out voted if they oppose anything.
The future success of the next group of directors will be predicated on their ability to generate income for the club, how difficult that'll be we'll find out in the coming months. If having Llambias and Leach on board proves problematic then pay Ashley what he's owed and get rid of them. But I'd call their bluff on this one just now.
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Frankie, I can't see anything. I find this happens a lot with ian1964 posts as well. Is there something I need to change settings wise?
You probably need a new broadband provider...
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If Miller and Simonson leave in the summer they'll in all likelihood be the last players born in the 70s to play for us. I guess that means I'll finally have to accept I'll never play for Rangers...
I'd be sorry to see Jim Stewart leave, he's highly regarded as a specialist goalkeeper coach.
When you see that list you realise the scale of the job the next manager has. We're literally looking at signing a whole new team, that's considerably harder than most realise.
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Wow, they still have Teletext in Germany! No wonder the Greeks are revolting.
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John, allow me to ask a couple of questions here.
First you cite comparable countries to Scotland, can you give an example of any of those countries where 20% of the population is hived off into seperate schooling at the age of 5? Second, you state, a priori, that RC schools don't cause sectarianism; do you have any evidence for this assertion?
I think there is a fundamental flaw in your claim and it is one I can best highlight be asking the following question (it's not rhetorical and I would be interested in an answer); If you believe that a separate schooling system for Catholics does not cause the division in which the seeds of sectarianism grow -and note, I am not ascribing blame - , would you be equally happy to have separate schooling systems for Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists and indeed atheists?
Would you, to take it to its logical conclusion, have separate schools based on political, societal or moral priniciples? After all, why should religion be the only construct which determines how we educate our children? Should we have schools for Socialists and Conservatives, Nationalists and Unionists, Marxists and Libertarians, Feminists and Fundamentalists?
And if not, why not? Following your argument we should be able to divide our nation's children into whatever sub-groups we want to with no effect on the cohesion or harmony of society.
Except, that's not how people work, is it?
18% of children in Australia attend a 'catholic' school, either private or public funded, RCs make up 25% of the Australian population. So that's fairly similar to Scotland. In England 12% of children attend an RC school so a bit lower than here. Neither country have any significant issues similar to Scotland.
I've tried to make it clear in this thread that I don't actually support RC schools or any specific religious school if state funded. Scotland already has two Jewish primary schools and three Episcopalian schools in the state sector and will almost certainly have a Muslim primary in the near future. I'm not in favour of them and don't support their growth. However, I don't believe they are the biggest factor in the existence of 'sectarianism' in Scotland. Churches should provide religion and schools should provide education, parents can decide how much of either their children should partake in.
I only posted in this thread because one of the first replies said they "gave up at it's not the schools" followed shortly after by other posters describing RC schools as "apartheid". Apart from feeling quite strongly that it's an inappropriate term to use I also feel too many Rangers supporters use this excuse to explain why some in our support and in society at large still cling to sectarian songs, chants and attitudes.
The report in the opening post was compiled by academics over a period of time using resources probably not available to most Gersnet posters. The report makes some interesting points. Firstly that 'sectarianism' isn't that big a problem despite most people thinking it is and that you are far more likely to experience prejudice if you are black, Asian or gay. Blacks, Asians and gays don't have separate schools so I'm assuming we're not explaining those prejudices on schooling.
I'll try and reply to everyone who replied to me, but it'll be later tonight or tomorrow before I'll have time.
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Well now this is an unexpectedly pleasant start to a sunny Glasgow morning. The news of the recent share sale to the RST coupled with this suggests we're now in the end game. Excellent.
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Protestant homes are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have Protestant homes yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do.
Sorry, mate, but I don't see your points as particularly good one in this post. I'm not trying to argue that there can be no bigotry if people are integrated at school. I could quite easily come up with examples of someone who comes from a bad home who isn't bigoted but that wouldn't prove my point anymore than your examples disproves mine. It isn't black and white as you seem to be trying to make out.
My point is why don't these countries have the same problem as Scotland does? You said this on the first page of this thread
They keep expounding this lie but it doesn't become more believable, no matter how often they repeat it.
Offering one section of the community schooling in line with their religion and separating one religion is apartheid.
Separating kids and keeping them separated throughout the whole of their school life can only lead to differences. These differences are far more relevant than football teams. The engraining that there are differences and making sure that these differences are recognised every single day of their school life makes far more of an impression than the team they support.
End educational apartheid and you will make massive strides towards reducing religious bigotry.
You were the 3rd poster to highlight schools, nearly half of all replies at that point. My point is that the existence of RC schools in Scotland isn't the reason we have sectarianism. RC schools exist in comparable societies where no sectarianism exists.
RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up. The paragraph quoted above says focus groups think it's the case, that doesn't mean it is the case. Focus groups are simply sounding boards for commonly held beliefs, they don't provide empirical evidence.
The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.
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This thread was depressing until two posts ago.
The Gow article is excellent.
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I wouldn't ever suggest that a system of schooling should be abolished - but is that really the correct description of what RC schools are? A system? If parents want their kids to be schooled in a particular way then absolutely they should have the right to choose, but all schooling "systems" should be open to everyone without reference to their religion (or any other irrelevant trait). Would it be okay to apply this idea to any other kind of institution - that certain of them are only for people of a particular religion?
I suppose I approach this whole subject from a negative starting point because I'm fairly anti-religious in outlook and don't agree with the concept drumming religion into children too young to properly question what they're being taught. To paraphrase the school superintendent from The Simpsons, "God has no place within education, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion."
Hah, good line.
I'm not advocating them, I just don't think they are to blame for sectarianism. Whether it's the state's job to provide them is a different argument and one I don't think we'd be miles apart on.
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Jig
in Rangers Chat
Posted
That's possible certainly. But it's worth remembering that Wallace has had a wretched season until about three weeks ago, none of the other centre-backs have looked good, Foster was getting booed by our support before his injury, Black has been poor in the holding midfield role, Law only started playing a fortnight ago and neither Simonson or Robinson inspired confidence in anyone. McCulloch is not the long term answer to any question however he's only one player in a side that has defended badly as a team, he's not been anymore culpable than most of the others. If the midfield aren't retaining the ball or winning it, if the full backs aren't stopping crosses and if the keepers aren't commanding their box then even the best centre-half is going to get exposed.
An interesting thing happened on Sunday when McCulloch was sent off. McCall chose to take off a midfielder when a lot of people would have expected him to take off Miller or Clark and play one up. McCall realised that our forwards were not allowing the Hearts defence the time to build from the back, in short our defending started the second they took possession. When the side defends as a team even the slowest centre-half looks less exposed.