JohnMc

Centre halves get broken noses StuGers, it's not right but it's always happened and will continue to happen. The ex-Man Utd defender Vidic was in the papers at the weekend and told how he'd had his nose broken half a dozen times. Stephen Caldwell had his nose broken by Duncan Ferguson in a reserve match and they were mates with each other. I'm struggling to think of a centre-half who hasn't had their nose broken, or cheekbone or lost their front teeth at some point. It's not just us either. We might not like to hear that but it's the truth. That Celtic full back had his jaw broken in the Scottish cup final and the player who did it stayed on the park and if the penalty that Hibs got on Saturday had been given to Motherwell yesterday we'd have been rightly furious. Football is a physical sport, sometime too physical, but we can either learn to deal with it or we can get used to losing.

Kevin Thomson did a series of interviews recently and he spoke about joining Rangers. The interviewer (an ex-Celtic player I'd never heard of) asked him if he noticed a big difference in the training from his time at Hibs, no, he replied, the Rangers squad I joined wasn't great, PLG had just left and recently appointed Walter Smith was rebuilding. Thomson explained that when playing Celtic Smith instructed his players to turn the game into a fight, a battle. Celtic had better players and if Rangers went toe-to-toe with them football wise Celtic would win, but turn the match into a battle and Rangers would. Thomson said that's what Rangers did. There's a famous clip of Thomson putting a thunderous tackle onto Robbie Keane then throwing him to the ground as he begins to remonstrate. Rangers bullied Celtic into submission. I was reminded of this watching yesterday's match. We actually looked quite good for the first half hour or so. Composed, knocking the ball about and controlling the match, but for all that we didn't create many actual chances and our final ball was poor. But once Motherwell remembered they were in a cup semi-final we'd no answer. They wanted to win more, they'd a greater desire and most damning for me they finished the stronger side when they should have been on ropes hanging on for a result. We chucked it with 15 minutes still to go. That's particularly galling as the Motherwell defence contained more than one bomb-scare in it. I don't remember seeing a more anonymous performance from a Rangers player than from Pena yesterday. Surely Holt, or even Hardie, or dare I say it Miller, would have contributed more to the match? Windass at least was involved in the match for spells, albeit he was poor. Singling players out is unfair though as there's a collective lack of leaders and winners in the side. No team should chuck it with 15 to go in a cup semi-final, particularly no Rangers side. The experienced players, the Dorrans, the Jacks and the Alves need to take responsibility for that. The ref did have a poor match, but so did the ref in the semi-final the day before. If we blame the ref for yesterday's result we're never going to address the problem. Scottish football is physical, too physical, it has been for years. However that's the league we play in and those are the types of sides we need to beat. So buy players and use tactics accordingly. Because rest assured every other player and manager in our league watched that game yesterday and saw a Rangers side that doesn't like a battle and will chuck it when the going gets tough and so will use those exact tactics against us.

Was it? I hadn't heard that. I'm not one of the 'ban all papers' brigade. I've no doubt that today's story came directly from Miller or one of his associates. It's true in so much as it's his version of what's happened. PC might have a different version. I've actually really tried to be less negative about PC in recent weeks, but it's not easy you know!

No it doesn't. This isn't about his ability as a player it's about the respect he commands from his fellow pros. It's about how he deals with his team-mates, how he trains, behaves and conducts himself. It's the same in any walk of life, the best player isn't always the most respected. Fod, Tav, Dorrans and Jack have been first choice picks. Fod has done well, Tav looks no better or worse than last season, Jack's done okay but he not the unqualified success some seem to think he is. Dorrans, for me, has been disappointing, I think he's a better player than we've seen and is largely out of position playing deep. Hodson plays one in five, Alnwick not even that and John has barely played one match. Windass is, at best, inconsistent and McCrorie has played one and a bit games. Hardie isn't getting a sniff and Wallace seems to keep picking up niggley injuries. I don't think managing is just about picking players for the team, it's about getting the best out of them. PC isn't doing that with most of those players. Okay, we'll compare notes again in a few months time. Management is getting the best out of the resources he has. How's that working out then? He can send half of them to the under-20s as long as he keeps winning matches, if he's not then he's got a problem.

Listen, I agree, all PC needs to do is string a run of victories together and all of this is forgotten, it's that simple. The British players thing occurred to me a few weeks back but was brought into the open during the week when it was reported that he'd criticised the British players for not welcoming him enough. It certainly looks like someone close to Miller spoke to the Record, if not the player himself, and telling stories out of class doesn't win anyone any friends among the support. But I'm careful of not confusing the messenger with the message.

No, but the Chief Engineer might and he'd do well to listen to him. I think you're dead wrong about Mourinho and Conte too, they absolutely care a lot what their players think, you can't win anything without players on your side and buying into your methods. To be fair to Caixinha I think he also cares what the players think hence he called the meeting, as Frankie said up thread the banishing of Miller is surely unlikely to be because he disagreed with PC's methods and more likely about something else. Like most supporter's I think Miller's time as a player is up but we should step back from the personalities involved for a moment and look at the issue. When our most experienced player and a player who still commands a lot of respect from his fellow professionals and one looked up too by most of the players at Ibrox, falls out with the manager questions need to be asked. No manager should just get blind support. Caixinha has struggled to manage British players, and unless we're planning on moving to Mexico or Portugal in the next few months that's a problem when you're playing in Scotland. Hill and Crooks released, McKay, Waghorn, Keiren and Garner sold, O'Halloran, Dodoo, Halliday and Forrester shipped out on loan and now a falling out with Dorran and major rift with Miller with rumours of a strained relationship with Wallace. I understand why many will feel Miller's banishment is no loss and that the club needs new continental ideas and that British players are overpaid, lazy ingrates deserving of little but scorn. But in my opinion the manager of Rangers needs to be able to get the best out of British players, who will almost certainly make up the bulk of the squad. The form of Garner, Waghorn and O'Halloran further shows that properly managed all three were capable of far more than we saw.

It clearly has some substance. I'm only speculating but if Miller has voiced concerns over the managers training and tactics perhaps the manager should be taking note of them instead of punishing him like a child. Whether he's past it or not he's still a player with 69 caps who has played in four league winning sides as well as half a dozen cups, he'll have some insight into what a winning club looks like. In some ways it's a shame it's Miller because he's almost as polarising as Caixinha with the support.

Yeah, but there's dropping him from the side for poor form and there's making him train with the under 20s. They send very different messages.

There was something about Parlane that epitomised cool. He'd slightly longer hair and always seemed younger than the other players even when he wasn't. You felt he could have had a part in Starsky and Hutch managing a trendy night club.

What do you mean by "that doesn't mean he's right"? Right about what, do you know what the alleged fall out is about because I don't? No matter who is 'right' it's a dicey strategy to banish him to the under-20s, that's a very public humiliation for a popular and experienced pro, the other players will have a view on that.

They did. Murray spoke with PLG and asked him if he was sure dropping and selling the club captain and best player was what he thought was best to do. PLG said yes and Murray told him that was fine he'd back him. Ferguson was stripped of the captaincy, dropped and told he could leave the club. It was the end of December and the transfer window was only just opening. In the end PLG decided to walk before it came to anything, he realised he'd lost the dressing room and a lot of the club's support.

Putting aside any doubts I harbour over Caixinha's ability falling out with the most experienced player and arguably the most influential player at the club is a dangerous move. Miller isn't known for undermining managers or flouting off in the huff, indeed most managers who work with him seem to really respect him even when supporters are struggling to see what he brings to a side. As I said a day or two ago there's stuff always happens behind the scenes we don't hear about, there's stuff happening just now. A public falling out with Miler will either make or break PC's reign. But when your senior players are unhappy with your management style any manager has problems that only convincing results can fix.

The board backed the manager last time too, but the players and many of the fans didn't.

The directors and those behind the scenes will have a much more informed opinion on this than us. We see results and performances. They'll see everything, the work being done on the training pitch, the attitude and demeanour of the players, the contact with other staff, the general mood about the place, the changes he's made, the promises being kept and the targets being reached plus there are always things going on that fans never hear about that will affect the squad and the manager. Has Pedro settled, has his wife, his staff and their families? What about the players, who is carrying an injury, struggling to train, not adapting to the culture, sulking at not getting a game, building up huge gambling debts and so on. Ally McCoist gets stick from some supporters now, but I recall a friend of mine who works for Rangers talking about McCoist when we first went into Administration. The time he took with the 'staff', the trouble he went too for them, the understanding he showed for people on normal salaries facing real hardship if they lost their jobs. Most of them would have done anything for Ally after that and he'd their total respect. The point I'm making is those ultimately responsible for hiring and firing Pedro will see the big picture, which might look much better, or much worse, than the one we see.

Within 30 minutes of arriving in Brisbane I was offered a job just because I was Scottish. The guy offering it was from Blairgowrie, and he'd two lassies from Oban and another from Kirkintilloch already working with him. I got a couple of jobs when I lived in Australia because I was Scottish, we're just as cliquey as everyone else.

I agree with you that Northern European players usually find the UK an easier cultural adjustment than Latin players. That being said Kanchelskis recent autobiography claimed there was a big split in our dressing room between the Dutch and non-Dutch players during his time at Rangers. Every dressing room has cliques, when things aren't going well these become more noticeable. It's inevitable that the Portuguese players will gravitate to each other; shared language, culture and 'strangers in a strange land' experiences will bring them together. The Spanish speakers will inevitably do the same. But then so will the young guys and in some dressing rooms the black players are a clique too. You see this in all work places and football clubs are no different. This is easy fixed, we just need to start winning.

I'd be more alarmed if there wasn't unrest in the dressing room after our start to the season. That's not meant as a criticism of Pedro. The players, the coaches and the manager should all be angry after Saturday and several other of our performances and finger pointing, some home truths and frank exchanges can sometimes be the best way to sort these things out. I'm also think this is a deliberate leak, let the fans know everyone is unhappy about what's going on, it doesn't really reflect badly on PC. I always thought Kenny Miller was our 'vice' captain, hence why he took the armband when he came on. In the grand scheme of things I don't think it really mattered who was the captain on Saturday, no one was acting like one.

In mitigation for Alves he really didn't have a break during the summer or a pre-season because of the Confederation's Cup and that will take a toll on any player especially one at the latter end of his career. Players who don't have a 'pre-season' often pick up little strains and can struggle for fitness later in the season. It's a concern I have for Moreloss too. He joined us straight from a summer season in Finland, I think that's one of the reasons he started the league flying but at the same time fatigue might be an issue for him in a few months time. It's something I imagine the management team are aware but he's currently un-droppable so I doubt he'll be getting a rest anytime soon. Does he play for the Columbian national side? Trips to South America during the season can be energy sapping too. As for 'where we're at' I think we're at the roughly the same place we were this time last season. I think tactically you can now see what the side is trying to do, something that I couldn't discern when PC took over, and the players understand their roles now. I don't think we bought particularly well over the summer, based on how much we spent, although I also accept it's too early judge. For the money we spent I think we could have bought more players of a similar if not better standard than we did. Our squad is shallow, as we saw on Saturday if we lose a couple of players we're throwing untried teenagers in and if Moreloss gets injured we're very short of goal scorers. I disagree about speed, we were a faster side last season, McKay, Waghorn and Holt were all quicker and only Moreloss brings real speed to the side. When our first choice defence is fit we're stronger there, middle of the park too, but wide areas are weaker and we've fewer options up front albeit our first choice centre-forward is better than anything we've had since Jelavic. We don't play as attractive a style of football this season for a similar return results wise. It might surprise some of you to know that I'm not convinced our manager, or this team, is capable of winning the league, this season or in a couple of season's time, and we'd be better off facing that now. I understand why others feel differently though. We've had an easier start to the league this season than last season but a similar set of results. I don't think Pedro is good at motivating players and the side lacks fight and character. Despite the new faces we still look leaderless on the field and that's a concern.

Yes, I think you're right. For what it's worth I also think PC was pretty canny after the match having a go at Brown and highlighting the elbow. That's diverted attention away from the players and their shortcomings and onto him and Celtic. Text book management to be fair.

Yip, I have, he's a fairly average referee on a good day, but he's got no preference for Celtic I can assure you of that. There's that great gif of Kevin Thomson tackling Robbie Keane then throwing him to the ground when he tries to get up that still does the rounds. Where were our midfielders doing that yesterday? Sometimes you need to be sly and sometimes you need to be overt when it comes to the physical side of the game. We were neither yesterday. Every side that comes to Ibrox should be intimidated, Celtic weren't. That's not because of the ref, that's because of the players. It actually surprises me, without playing up national stereotypes I did expect the Latin players to have a bit more about them, sly digs, off the ball stuff, disrupting the tempo of a match that kind of thing.

For me the biggest indictment and the gravest criticism I can make is not one supporter I know is surprised we lost and many are relieved it was only by two. That's where we are as a support and a club currently. When Walter Smith took over in 2007 we'd just been put out of the Scottish Cup, there was instability and schisms in the squad and we were already out of the title race by January. In the next two transfer windows Smith signed veterans Davie Weir, Ugo Ehiogu, Christian Dailly and Roy Carroll on free transfers to bolster the defence, Steven Davis and Amdy Faye on loan and Darcheville on a free. We spent money on Lee McCulloch from Wigan. He then took the best players from Hibs (Kevin Thomson and Stephen Whittaker), St Mirren (Broadfoot), Kilmarnock (Naismith) and Falkirk (Alan Gow) to complement the signings of Daniel Cousin, Demarcus Beasley and Carlos Cueller. In total, over two transfer windows we spent about £10 million, recouping around £3 million through the sales of Clement, Svensson and Sionko with a further £9 million with the sale of Hutton in the next transfer window. Without calculating wages Smith spent approximately a net £7 million in his first two transfer windows. His strategy of signing the best young players in Scotland, combined with experienced players entering the end of their careers supplemented with a handful of good value foreign players should have been the blueprint for us to follow. If reports are too be believed we spent over £8 million in the transfer window just closed. Now it seems we did try and buy Walker from Hearts, there were stories of us being after McLean from Aberdeen and we did sign Jack of course. But no Moult, no Ali Crawford, no Jason Cummings, no Liam Lindsay? Whether you think these players are good or not isn't the point I'm debating, by buying that type of player we not only weaken the opposition but we bring in players who don't need time to settle, acclimatise or understand Scottish football. There are players at other Scottish sides good enough to improve this current Rangers side. Now I can accept that the Rangers Caixhino inherited were in worse shape than the squad Smith did, I can also accept that Celtic were further ahead of us than Strachan's Celtic were, although they were double winners and were playing, and competing, in the Champion's League at the time too. But our expectations are currently so low we're excusing not only poor performances, players and poor tactics but, frankly, bizarre signings and a suspect strategy. Are we really better than last season? If we are it's not by much and I'm not convinced we are. Does anyone still think signing Pena and Herrera was smarter than signing say Walker and Moult? So, please, don't mistake this for an anti Pedro rant. It's not. I don't want him to 'fail' to be proved right, that's ludicrous. Literally nothing would make me happier than for him to succeed. I've been criticised on here for being too negative, too knee-jerk and for not giving this current Rangers side time. But those who criticise me, and Pete and the others who are disillusioned with what we see, ask yourself this; where is the fight, where is the heart and where is the desire in this side? We might well be too negative but I don't understand how, after 7 matches, four of them at home, with a record of 3 wins, 2 draws and 2 defeats, everyone isn't starting to wonder if this is going to work. For all we can complain about the ref yesterday (for the record Craig Thompson is an ex-BB officer and St Mirren season ticket holder from Paisley, he's no Celtic patsy), about missed chances and ifs and maybes, not even the most one-eyed among us can seriously doubt that Celtic played within themselves and were coasting for the last half hour with their minds already looking ahead to the Champion's League match in mid-week. We should have been kicking Celtic off the park yesterday, everyone of their players should have known they were going to miss the next couple of matches if our players had anything to do with it. They should have been scared yesterday. They weren't. I know there will be calls for more time and too early to judge, and I understand why. But understand why some of us don't believe more time will make any difference. That's not because we have unreasonable expectations or a personal dislike for Pedro.

Hah, good point! If only we'd just given PLG more time we wouldn't be having these conversations now...

"Argumentative for the sake of it" See I've analysed and posted about Pedro's record before joining Rangers, I've watched his matches in charge, both this season and last, I've seen how his sides react to set-backs and changes during matches and I've looked at his man-management of players he's inherited and bought and I've looked at the results and performances of his Rangers sides. I find him lacking in every single one, I can't see what strengths he has and what he's bringing to the club. I'm sorry Gaffer but it isn't trolling and it certainly isn't being argumentative for the sake of it to point these out. You have faith in Pedro, I don't. That's not because I have a beef with you or Rab or dB or any of the posters who have faith that Pedro will come good, I don't, I just think you are wrong on this particular point. I mean it's an important point and one fundamental to the well being of our club but it's not personal. As I've got older I've become more sceptical of 'faith' without some evidence to back it up. I'm struggling to see any evidence that Pedro is the man to rebuild our side into Champions again, this year or next. For the record, because you don't know me, PC is the first Rangers manager I've ever publicly called for to be dismissed. My online posting record is, I imagine, available for all to read. I backed Ally when almost everyone had turned on him, I backed Warburton up to the point he was dismissed, I even backed PLG when many had turned on him, including the players. I don't publicly slate Rangers managers for the sake of it or because I'm getting my kicks out of trolling you. I only do it when I absolutely believe we've made a mistake. I don't have faith, I see very few signs that we're any better than last season, we're weak physically and mentally, we lack skill, we've very little depth, we seem to have given up on blooding and playing young players and we're tactically being out-thought on too many occasions. That's my view based on what I see with my own eyes. It's not trolling to point out the absurdity of some of the excuses people make for our defeats. It's not trolling to question why we should have faith when there is literally no evidence to back it up. We need a manager who can build a side that is greater than the sum of its parts. Who can build a side that can grind out results, that can sustain a challenge all season probably not playing the most attractive or expansive football but one that'll win. At no point in his past has Pedro managed a side that did that and nothing I've seen from his time at Rangers so far suggests he can do that with us. The harsh reality is Celtic have better players, a better squad and more money to strengthen it than we do. We can't go toe-to-toe with them so we need to find a different way to win. That's just my view and it's not trolling to express it. No manager can be expected to win the league without his own players, apparently. Except that's what Alex McLeish did when he joined us, he won the league in his first full season in charge and no one his heralding him as some sort of managerial genius. When Walter Smith returned to Rangers the following season we won the the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and reached the UEFA Cup Final, almost certainly costing us the league in the process. I'm not requesting either of those two back, I'm pointing out that expecting more from a Rangers manager in a short space of time is not unreasonable or without precedent. I hope Pedro proves me wrong, I hope he makes me eat my words. But it's not trolling to fail to see whatever it is you see in him.

C'mon Pete, get with it, losing 5-1 to Celtic last season wasn't Pedro's fault, that was Warburton and the board's fault, and getting put out of Europe to Progres wasn't Pedro's fault, that's UEFA's fault and no one can really be expected to beat semi-professional journeymen in June after all and losing to Hibs wasn't Pedro's fault that was all the ref's fault and dropping points at home to Hearts well no one can be expected to beat a rudderless, managerless, mess of a Hearts side at home at this stage of the season, c'mon the side needs time to gel and drawing at Firhill against 10 men, well that's your fault for all the negative posts and thoughts you make, the players can sense them and it puts them off you know. If we lose next week that'll probably be your fault too, or maybe mine, but definitely not Pedro's, he's doing a smashing a job.

You're confident? What are you confident about, that we'll win or that we won't lose by another record margin?