JohnMc

Just so I understand is it the fans who are to blame for the result today? Well let me me be the first to apologise, I just hadn't realised my scepticism towards our manager would so affect our ability to defend and attack. My bad.

I'm not a "fan" of Pedro. I'm a Rangers fan. I'll support every Rangers manager, and every Rangers player. That's what being a supporter means to me.

 

However, there are two parts to this. Firstly, i don't care what issues KM has with other players or the manager. His job is to carry out the manager's instructions, albeit challenge decisions in a professional and respectful manner. The second issue is the leaking of this. If this was witnessed by someone, it must have been in public (assuming a player didn't leak it), and if that's the case he should have known better than to challenge his authority in that manner. For someone with experience that would be a seriously stupid thing to do.

 

We can all have challenges to our boss' decisions but there's a way to do it. It should always be done in private and always be done respectfully. If it's not done that way, the whole machine breaks.

 

Having said all this, I don't believe it's true. I can't believe that KM (with all his experience) would let himself and the team down like that. He's better than that I hope.

Okay, you're not a 'fan' of PC, it was shorthand for 'unstinting in your support and unhappy with criticism of him', but I accept your correction on that and I apologise.

Has it leaked, I've not heard it anywhere else but here? Really, you don't care what our most experienced player thinks of our manager?

I agree these things are better done in private, but is the training pitch private? Or the dressing room? It's an emotional industry, falling outs can't always be managed, sometimes a word or a phrase or an instruction can spark something. As I said Miller isn't a callow youth or particularly hot-headed, so if there's any truth to this I'd have thought it would be of concern to most Rangers supporters.

I'd really be disappointed if KM did that and can't believe it. If it's true though, he should be kicked as hard and as far from Ibrox as possible.

Why Gaffer? He's not some youngster with an attitude problem he's a pro with 19 years experience, nearly 600 first team appearances and 69 caps, he's played in four different countries and is regularly lauded for his professionalism and his aptitude and work-rate. If, and it's still a big if, if this is true don't you think it might be worth stepping back and wondering why the most experienced player in our squad is questioning our newish manager?

I know you're a big fan of Pedro but doesn't any part of you wonder why someone like Miller would reach that conclusion?

How much have we spent this summer, does anyone know?

I enjoy our resident Cameronian's regular Richard Gordon pieces too. Unfortunately I also think Aberdeen will finish second this season, as things stand, and think they've done pretty well in the transfer market so far with some shrewd buys. The felching going on between them and Celtic is nauseating though, and there seems little doubt Celtic are trying to help Aberdeen strengthen their squad. Be funny if Aberdeen knock them out of both cups and take 9 points off them next season, although maybe contractually they're not allowed too...

What I see is a man who is full of determination and passion, and that's been missing for some time. I like the attitude he has towards discipline and again I strongly believe that's required to turn things around. However, I also know that it takes time to turns things around as much as we need.

I've no specific insight into why the board's relationship with Warburton soured, it couldn't have been results because if it was PC would be gone by now, so it was something else or an accumulation of things. When Warburton joined he brought discipline, passion and determination, more importantly he brought organisation. Everyone knew what they were supposed to be doing. Warburton took a stuttering disjointed side, that had been humiliated by Motherwell in the play-off, and had them playing some of the finest football I've ever seen Rangers play within a couple of months. So, my question, how come it takes PC considerably longer to take a better squad than Warburton inherited into a cohesive, united winning side?

You're right that he had an average cv, but already he has brought in some quality players. I have seen Alves and Pena play a few times and I rate both very highly. Given that he's brought players in of that quality, I have confidence in his ability to pick far better players than Warburton did.

I doubt either would have joined us if PC and his backroom side hadn't been with us. On paper they look like a step up, let's see how they settle and perform though.

I was optimistic after the first half of the home leg against Progres. Some of the play was excellent. That's the type of football I'd love to watch this season, albeit I'd want us to score more goals with so many chances. For various reasons (I've posted previously) the team then didn't perform in the next three halves we played against them, although I could see what the team was trying to do. I'm excited to see if he can build a consistent level of performance. If he can, we will have a brilliant season (notwithstanding the fact we're now out of Europe).

This is where I strongly disagree. We were playing a terrible side, genuinely the worst side we've ever drawn in Europe, and by your estimation we performed in one quarter of the tie. I saw no excellent play, I saw a team unsure of what they were doing and how they were meant to be playing. I saw a Progres side grow in confidence as the ineptitude of their opponents dawned on them and I saw a complete lack of tactical awareness, fight, passion and the kind of nous full-time professional players usually display when facing inferior opposition. For me it was a further demonstration of the managers inability to inspire a team and learn from his mistakes. Having got the measure of Progres in the first leg we should have ran out comfortable winners in the second, we knew how they played, we could see their strengths and their weaknesses.

PC has also created a defensive system that can work and that's something we sadly missed last season. I always felt we were going to lose goals last season. I don't get that feeling now. The one tactical thing I'm not happy with however is his use of Miller in a wide position (or in the advanced midfield role). Miller does not have the ability, touch, or discipline to play there to maintain width, and although I can appreciate that PC rates Miller's workrate, I really hope this is temporary until we can get Pena, Dalcio or Candeias fully functioning.

Well that defensive system was looking pretty poor last week and I'd hate to see what a half decent side do it. It's bizarre, because I look at this side and I can't see how we'll score goals or how we'll stop a decent side scoring. Miller's positioning is the least of our problems.

Finally, what I also like is his willingness to give the younger players their chance. Even if it means losing more games, I'd rather we continue to do that for the longer term good of the club.

An interesting point. If, and I'm not convinced he does favour youth, but if that turns out to be his style then he'll get fired. The Rangers support simply won't tolerate losing many games, young players or not, if someone at the club hasn't explained the reality of being Rangers manager to PC then all our conversations are moot.

PC may turn out to be unable to help in our next stage of development from obscurity to champions. If he is unsuccessful, I'd like to reach that conclusion after giving him sufficient time and support to give it a real go. I'm willing to give him that. I'd hope we all agree on that. Perhaps the one thing we disagree on is what constitutes a reasonable length of time. For me, he's only just got his team almost together, albeit the two key players haven't played yet. Surely he deserves the chance to be judged after he has his first team settled. The part that's frustrated me is that many people have called for his head before he arrived. Many others have reacted hysterically after going out of Europe. Although I understand the disappointment (I feel it too), I think it's fair to acknowledge the circumstances and lack of preparation time, and the fact he's not been able to play his first eleven yet.

I'm staggered at the excuses that have been made for the defeat. How can you overlook the fact he has well paid, experienced players at his disposal? There's been a lot of re-writing of the Warburton era, our three best performances last season were Celtic at Parkhead under Murty and Aberdeen and Hearts at Ibrox under Warburton. We showed fight, grit, determination and periods of skill and tactical awareness. Those are the players PC inherited. Why has be unable to mould them into something resembling a side capable of beating part-timers from Luxembourg? Where was the 'bounce' that every manager achieves when he takes over a side that's been stuttering? The squad he took over was capable of beating Aberdeen at home, drawing with Celtic away and beating our poorest ever opponents in Europe. Yet we didn't and the blame for that must lie squarely with our manager.

I'd be willing to give him all the time he needs if there was even a semblance of a footballing style to the side, if it was clear what his sides were trying to do on the pitch, and if we were showing improvement. I've seen none of those things. So fine, perhaps when Dorrans, Alves and the rest are fit and in the team we'll be better, we certainly should be, but all that's happened is we've put better players into our team, that doesn't demonstrate we've got a manager capable of inspiring performances, organising teams depending on opponents, seeing weaknesses in the opposition and capable of creating a side better than the sum of it's parts. That last point is important because that's what we're going to need to do to overhaul Celtic. They have more money and better players than us, so we need an alchemist and I've sen nothing from PC to suggest he's that.

We all want what's best for the club. I think what's best for the club is for us to unite behind the manager and do what we are here to do - support the club. If things don't work out, we have a board and a DoF that is there to make those decisions. The more support we have for the manager and players, the more likely they are to succeed. I don't think it helps to have any more unnecessary pressure on them as they find their feet. Hopefully that explains my optimism and support for the manager and team.

I'm sorry, when I read your words I hear Andrea Leadsom berating the interviewer for a lack of patriotism for questioning why she was making such a horlicks of Brexit. My loyalty to Rangers is unquestioning, my loyalty to any one individual at the club is not. I'm not normally a reactive or negative person, but most of what you've written is emotional, not factual. We might get better when better players are available, but this belief that PC is a capable manager able to deliver what Rangers need in even the medium term is sadly lacking from any analysis I've read of him.

Discussions are always better than arguments because arguments are to find out who is right. Discussions are to find out what is right.

Yip, fair enough, I've edited the post above. I should know better.

I think you've just picked out what you wanted to from my post. How can the manager possibly be blamed for having almost no time to bring in a new bunch of players, get them fit and familiar with a style he wants to play, and all within a few weeks....remain optimistic and I'm looking forward to seeing how the manager and new players perform over the next few months. That seems reasonable to me, but I accept it's not for you.

Okay, why? Why are you optimistic, what can you see that I can't. PC had a below average CV before joining us and has been mediocre since arriving, why do you still have faith?

Yeah, another excercise that is. Now help yourself to a record book and check at what stage of the season and time of year we played those teams.

Aha, the famous peaking of Luxembourg players in July syndrome, ach well, right enough I should cut Pedro some slack, how are we supposed to expect him to deal with that massive disadvantage.

This is true - but it is also true that, historically, we have stood by our managers until we could no more. Some will say that we are already there with Pedro but I am, personally, definitely a fence-sitter in this regard. The result last week was absolutely catastrophic and there can be no excuses for it (not match fit, changes in personnel, UEFA timing of games are all just a cover for what was a terrible performance and horrendous result over two legs).

 

However, I do believe we need to see how his new recruits fit in before getting rid - he has Alves, Dorrans, Pena, Herrera all to still come in - all of whom would form the spine of the team, the most important element IMHO. We need to see how they integrate, enhance and improve on what we currently have before deciding to get rid of him. Last week's result deserved the criticism it received for both players and manager. But this is a marathon, not a sprint. Yes, he has had time with the squad but we all pretty much agree that what he inherited wasn't very good. His additions, for the most part, look pretty impressive - just sadly we haven't seen them yet.

 

The jury is very much out for me on Pedro - I just don't see any real organization or tactical genius in him. He talks about the transitions and phases of play - but then so can I, but you don't really want me as manager of Rangers.... but I have yet to see him really, really have an impact as a tactician on games. His record has been mediocre with us, but he had to use the hand he was dealt from Warburton. Now he has his own players in he should, and will, be judged on his own squad - but given we haven't seen almost half of the players he has brought in, and one could contend that the half we haven't seen are the most important half, I think he should be given some time to see how the perform together.

 

This was a howler of a result for us, no doubt about it. But European success was never going to happen anyway and we likely would have been put out by Limassol. I am not excusing it in any way, shape or form - but I do think we need to see how he and his players do before getting rid.

 

You may say that getting rid of him at Christmas is too late as the season would be ruined - you may very well be proven right. However, if we were to replace him right now his successor could very well have a ruinous season too given he would have no option but to utilize the players that Pedro would have left him. The choice isn't as easy as it sounds either because if we get rid of Pedro what would the reaction of the players that have just signed for him be ?

 

For sure, the players and management made a very large rod for their own backs last week - and they have a month almost before the next competitive game so they cant even atone quickly. They ALL should be ashamed of themselves.

All fair points. I was publicly sceptical of him when appointed but I was genuinely willing to give him time, however I've seen enough to believe he's not the man. A good manager would have got a 'bounce' out of the existing squad, he'd have got some of the fringe players performing and some of the better ones too. That he didn't, coupled with some horrific results, have convinced me he's not the man for us.

I accept that some of the new signings should improve our side, but we really didn't need international players to deal with Progres. I'm not concerned about how the players would react. They're professionals, they'll all have seen managers come and go before, they'll adapt or move on, that's football. I actually think we've got the makings of a okay squad and managed properly they could achieve something.

I've been thinking of who the worst side we've ever been drawn against in Europe is. I think it's Progres but I could accept Gota from the Faroes might have been worse. They were Faroe champions at the time though so they might be expected to beat the 4th best side in Luxembourg.

Valletta of Malta are pretty poor too. Again they were Champions when we last met them but not when we met them in the 80s. To be fair we did score a barrel load against them that time. Anyone I've missed?

No matter how often the same arguments are rolled up time and again. If one keeps ignoring the context of it all, you can just as well forget any debate. You want to drum on about 4th best team (they brought in 10 new players, so who knows what they are like compared to last season?), being "a Luxembourg" side, and whatnot. It changes nothing, as PC's new signings haven't made any impact as yet, the same people employed managed to miss chances just like they did last season. We missed a few sitters and they scored from their odd chances. That is football, not excuses. As I said previously, we are not playing this game alone on the park and those who qualify to play in Europe do so on merit.

 

Only time will tell how Rangers FC and PC will progres ... and I for one will wait for a while or going out all guns blazing.

Hang about dB, do you really think Progres are anything but the the worst side we've ever been drawn against in Europe? Have I misunderstood you on that? And do you feel this defeat excusable because Pedro can't be expected to organise and motivate well paid professional players to beat the worst side we've ever met because he didn't buy them? Is that the argument dB?

Nor should they be! I've had a couple of shocking days at my work in the past few months but I wouldn't expect to be sacked either. You guys really need to get a grip and stop this hysteria. We lost a game of football because one team took their two chances and we didn't take ours. We won the first game and should have been out of sight at half time. That's football.

 

As for the manager being sacked because he should make sure the players are fit .... fitness is about mental fitness too and if you're the attacking team (which we were), it takes 6-7 weeks to reach the sharpness required for this style of football (or any other for that matter). Progres should be commended because they had a game plan which relied on them putting eleven men behind the ball and keeping us out. They did it brilliantly, and it annoys me to hear them called a pub team. There are few pro teams that can keep the concentration going for as long as they did and I take my hat off to them.

Gaffer, you're not the manager of Rangers and with respect if you're comparing your job to his we're wasting our time. The manager of Rangers doesn't get to have 'shocking days', if he has one he gets criticised very publicly, if he has a few close together he gets fired, we don't accept second best and that's why we're the most successful club side in the world. You might think that's unfair, but it's reality.

I can probably accept losing a match, I can't accept losing the tie, that's simply unacceptable. I don't get these excuses I keep reading about lack of fitness, whether physical or mental. That's Pedro's job, if he's sending out sides that aren't mentally fit then he should be fired. There are no excuses for that, bullshit that it's harder to attack than defend, he's going to be facing a season of 10 men behind the ball in Scotland and he must surely know that by now. If we're not prepared for teams defending doggedly then we're in for a longer season than even I fear.

I didn't call them a pub team, but let's be clear they are a semi-pro side who finished fourth in the league of a country who are currently ranked 48th out of 55 European countries. Two of the countries below them are rocks in the sea, two are mountain tax havens and one is a war zone. They might beat the Dog and Duck first eleven on Glasgow Green on a Saturday morning but lets not pretend they are anything other than the poorest side Rangers have ever met in European football before now, because they are.

Don't hold your breath mate. Nobody will be sacked.

That's the dilemma the board face. If they sack him now and admit he was a mistake they'll be criticised and their judgement to appoint a manager will be questioned. But on the plus side they'll have removed the problem early and have another chance to make a better appointment.

If they choose to wait until Christmas, when we're fighting for fourth, out the League Cup and playing to half full stadiums then they can say 'we gave him time and backed him but it didn't work out'. That looks better for them but next season is a write off and we've wasted 12 months.

I'm not some hot head who hounds a manager after a bad result. I normally plead patience. I went down with the good ship Le Guen, Bluedell might remember heated pleas to give him more time and backing on another forum at the time. I even backed McCoist because he was a club legend and held the club together during some difficult times when I felt he deserved more respect. But I can't see any reason to keep Pedro. I'm sure PC is a lovely guy but he's never good enough to manage Rangers, he simply doesn't have what it takes and the sooner he's relieved of his duties the better for both him and us because it's going to get horrible for him once the season begins. Glasgow is an unforgiving football city when things aren't going well.

I'm not suggesting we will be unbeaten, I don't know yet and that's the point. The question was do you think anyone would have predicted an unbeaten season for them after that?

 

As for us what I am suggesting is that the gloom and doom over this freak result is all fine regarding the loss of Euro income but at this stage meaningless regarding the prospects for our upcoming season.

 

One thing that does need to happen is the urgency of the final 10 minutes has to be on display from the first minute of every match. If they had played the entire match like they did those final 10 minutes it would have been an entirely different result.

 

I'm hoping that in the dressing room the manager will address that lack of urgency until disaster loomed and the likes of Alves deal with it on the park.

Meaningless? He's shown himself unable to read a match, exert no influence on one as it plays out and unable to motivate a side to improve their performance against the same side the following week. Twice. It's not meaningless it was a less than subtle reminder that the hammering we received from Celtic wasn't a one off. Actually, it was meaningless if we choose to ignore it.

Freak results happen. You think anyone would have predicted an unbeaten domestic season for them after this?

 

[video=youtube;L9FUNt-jSHY]

They bloody qualified JFK, we got put out. Freak results do happen, but not over two legs they don't. And you're not seriously suggesting we'll go the rest of the season unbeaten, are you? I'll be astonished if we make it through August unbeaten.

Better managers have had worse starts.

 

Let's reassess the situation as we go in to the first Old Firm game.

Who? Who has had a worse start than this?

Reading this would make you think Progres made short work of us and we did not hit the post and bar three times in the second game.

 

What is unreasonable is the close to hysteria-like reaction about games that happened with mostly half-fit and not so long ago deemed unworthy players ... quite a few of whom will not see a first team starting slot for quite some time. PC's ability is called into question when how many, 6 out of his 9 new players have not started the first game, same with the second? He get no time whatsoever to get his new squad playing a few games together ... and some won't probably forgive him unless he beats the Scum 4 times this season. That is what I - IMHO - call unreasonable.

der Berliner, the fourth best team in Luxembourg! Fourth!! Not even the best side. If only you got points for hitting the post and the bar, eh? We scored one goal over 180 minutes against a side of part-timers dB, you can make your excuses in a one off match, perhaps, but not over two legs. Someone in the other thread mentioned Advocaat's first match against the Irish side. See, in that match we were losing badly at half time, again it was early in the summer, that side had not only not played together much but Advocaat had never managed them in a game that counted before, unlike Pedro he didn't get a few months to learn and plot and plan. So at half time Advocaat changed his side, changed formation, moved players about, saw how the Irish were playing and adjusted his team and tactics so that Rangers, the full-time side, ran out comfortable winners in the end. Tell me again about how PC didn't have time to prepare for this match? How long does he need to prepare a team capable of beating the side that finished more than 20 points behind the winners of the Luxembourg league?

If our players are "half-fit" then that alone should see PC get fired. Why are our players only half fit for the first match of the season? There can be no excuse for that, that's simply not doing the very basics of his job.

PC's ability is questioned because he's presided over two of the most humiliating results in over a century of playing football. You really think that's unreasonable?

Yeah, but the mentality of some that this is a given is IMHO quite unreasonable.

Unreasonable? You know what's unreasonable, expecting a Rangers manager to put out a side that can beat the fourth best side in Luxembourg over two legs. Aye, that's unreasonable now. Tell me why should I have faith in PC?

I flew out of Scotland on the 30th of June. Rangers were still in Europe, our most talented creative player was still on our books, there was little talk or thought of EBTs and Pedro was our manager.

I returned late last night to discover only one of the above is still true.

I'm staggered that anyone can make any kind of argument to keep Pedro now. It was a mistake to appoint him, it was a mistake to back him in the transfer market and it's a mistake to stick by him now just because we've invested in players he wanted. It won't come good and the sooner we accept this, make the hard but necessary change required, the better.

I'll take Hibs on the glorious twelfth if no one else wants it?

Lafferty on a free is a great signing for Hearts, likewise Aberdeen signing Greg Stewart on a loan is a good bit of business. I'd have passed on Lafferty but taken Stewart, I'm surprised he didn't make it down south.

We didn't really develop him (thinking of him as Ann academy player anyway) as he came from Killie, virtually ready to enter the first team. There has, of course, been subsequent experience and development.

 

He has the potential to be excellent and I would prefer we persevered with him because he is the most exciting player we have.

Nah Craig, that's not quite right. Kilmarnock released him when he'd just turned 16. The story is they feared he had a long term injury but popular belief is that was just an excuse and they felt he was too small and slight to make it. Certainly he's been largely injury free since then. Rangers then signed him and he spent a season in the under 19s before the club's demotion to Div 3 and subsequent exodus of first team players meant he was suddenly in the first team squad and getting a game. Kilmarnock are certainly due credit for developing him as a child, but as a professional, when no one else wanted to sign him, we've done the developing.

We're in agreement about persevering, although sadly it seems we're in the minority these days.

You are suggesting, at least so I infer, that the Club should make him an offer he can't refuse.

I am unsure. Is he good enough to justify a salary substantially greater than anyone else in the dressing room?

Has he shown that level of performance in the Premier League? For Warburton? for Murty? for Caixinha?

He was inconsistent last season, not uncommon for someone in his position or at his age. Consistency should come with experience though. But even then he was by far our most creative player.

I'm not suggesting he should be paid more than anyone else, but he should be on a par with our top earners. If that turns out not to be enough then we shake hands and go our separate ways, but I'm led to believe that's not the case. If nothing else McKay is only 22, signing him to another 3 year contract makes business sense, he'll be approaching the peak of his career in a couple of years time, selling him then makes more sense.

He, McKay, has been offered an extension; I do not know the terms; it seems that he is loathe to sign it. Ergo, I am left to conclude that he wishes to continue his career elsewhere.

Maybe he has been tapped up; maybe he is advised by an agent that the grass is greener elsewhere; maybe the boy just fancies a change; maybe he just fancies a Bosman, and a big signing on fee; maybe someone has greatly upset him.

Or maybe the offer he's been made doesn't match what he can get elsewhere and what others at the club are on.

Personally, I think that he would be better advised to stay, and learn under a new, technical, coaching regime. He has time on his side in this regard. Maybe he does not fancy the work.

Why do people think McKay is lazy or afraid of hard work? Visibly he looks like one of the fittest players at the club and he's certainly one of the fastest. In 2016 Warburton explained that both McKay and Holt were covering over 14km per game in late March, more than anyone else in the team. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't fancy hard word. Perhaps he just doesn't fancy the new manager of course.

He is a decent player, although over the piece last season he did not shine. (Nobody did, really.)

Well, exactly.

Cooper was generally regarded as enigmatic, a euphemism, I suppose, for a quality player who could be inconsistent. It strikes me that persevering with Cooper was worth while because when he was good, he was very, very good, and football, then, perhaps allowed for a luxury player to be carried through his inconsistencies.

Are we sure that McKay will regain form? Will that form be comparable to that of Cooper? (I sense a chorus, here.) Will it be sufficient to justify carrying him through a fallow period, or periods? Does the game, currently, allow the team to carry a passenger, on the strength of talent, and potential application of it, alone?

McKay has shown little in the last 10 months to allow me to answer these questions in the affirmative.

Of course, I should like him to stay, regain form, and contribute to the success of the team. Should the Club pull out all the stops to keep him? Of that I am unsure.

 

We should never forget that no man is bigger than the Club.

McKay is a match-winner, someone who creates chances in every match he plays and who will continue to improve as he gains more and more experience. That's absolutely worth persevering with, particularly when we've no replacement for him. I see no point in giving Hearts half a million (or more) for Walker when we could give it to McKay to sign a new contract. McKay is better than Walker.

It does seem his time at Rangers is coming to an end and I'm certainly not privy to what goes on in the dressing room, perhaps the relationship between him and the manager has broken down. It saddens and concerns me because I believe he could be something quite special and as a player we developed the club should have a better insight into his thinking and his state of mind. I guess I still think PC will be gone by this time next season and so I'd rather McKay stayed.

Walker, it seems, would like to play for us.

McKay it seems, would not.

C'mon Billy, do you think Walker will still want to play for us if we offer him less money than he's on just now? Or the same? These guys are professionals and want paid what they believe, or their agents are telling them, they are worth. I've never read anything that says McKay doesn't want to play for us, he signed a contract extension only 18 months ago. If the club don't think McKay is worth an English Championship salary they should say so and put him up for sale. I think he's definitely worth that and is by far our most creative player. To sell him and replace with someone who has spent most of the last season out injured makes no sense to me.

I'm old enough to remember when supporters moaned that Davie Cooper didn't 'try' hard enough, that he didn't influence games as much as he could, that his attitude wasn't all it should be, that he didn't get stuck in, all the criticisms I've started hearing about McKay in recent months. McKay has shown he can play with the best of them, he's still a young player, like most creative players and most young players he can be inconsistent, but he's better than anyone else who is at the club and most in the league.