JohnMc

You might be right, but I've a feeling when the league starts and there is actually football to speak about again this will slip down the agenda. Milne is clearly in the know and a fairly influential voice around the Scottish football table and for him to publicly state "we cannot spend another five years looking back and trying to redo what has taken place" suggests, very strongly, there's no appetite for it. In the meantime airtime needs filled and column inches written, there are few signings to get excited about and no real matches for a couple more weeks so I expect lots more talk and 'analysis' but no action. But I could be wrong.

She's well known by everyone in broadcasting in Scotland mate, and, for what it's worth, she's very highly thought-off. If the proposed changes to Radio Scotland are implemented then all music shows will leave to create a new DAB station leaving Radio Scotland as we know it to focus entirely on news, current affairs and sport. Sport will have more airtime and more prominence on the station. Whether it will get anymore resources is still unknown. It's in both Rangers and the BBC's interests to fix this. I'm not sure whether there's a will on either part to do this though.

I haven't noticed them reported on here but the comments from Stewart Milne of Aberdeen over the weekend were very informative. To paraphrase he said 'enough is enough, time to move one' and if the the owner of Aberdeen, Celtic's pet since our demotion, is saying that publicly knowing it'll anger a section of his own support, then I think that's a fairly good indicator of the mood in the boardrooms of Scottish football clubs. With Dundee Utd on their knees and out of the top league and Hearts being run by someone fairly sensible now I'm not sure Celtic have many allies left in the self-harm club. indeed I'm not convinced their's much appetite to go through this all again in the Celtic boardroom, they need to be seen by their own support to be making noises but I can't see them doing much else. Hopefully, within a few months, everyone will be talking about something else.

Hah, yeah the 'Le Guen years' caught my eye too. I don't know if the guy is for real or not, but I think he is a Rangers fan for what it's worth. In the end if that's how he feels that's how he feels, as someone up thread said he'd be better off writing about his concerns on here and discussing it with fellow bears first though. As a support we're broader and deeper than we're ever given credit for and he's hardly alone in being embarrassed when people associate Rangers with Orange walks and the 'long to reign over us' banner, whilst clearly a wind-up, did make me cringe too. I'm uncomfortable with any Rangers supporter telling another Rangers supporter they should stop supporting the club because of their politics though.

Well, as of this morning Luxembourg are ranked 48th out of 55 and Scotland are ranked 26th. Progres are way below SPFL standard, they're part-time for a start and you have to go to the third tier of Scottish football to find part-time clubs. They also play in front of crowds you could literally count during the match, indeed you could introduce yourself personally to everyone else present at half-time. In terms of size and resource Progres are about the equivalent of Alloa or Stenhousemuir. And, much as it pains me to point out, Scottish clubs beat clubs from Bosnia (ranked 39th) and Northern Ireland (ranked 49th) pretty recently. As an aside Cyprus are ranked 21st in Europe, they've been improving for a couple of decades or so.

Okay, I'll bite. Where are you rating Luxembourg football currently then dB? What are the 'facts' those of us writing them off don't have?

That Rangers Report thing is great fun but if anything proves the term lies, damned lies and statistics it's that. I look forward to the campaign to install Lennon as our next manager.

Whilst none of us know how he was treated he's used a stupid phrase there and underlined the lack of perspective so many footballers seem to demonstrate. I imagine all of the players knew the directors and Warburton were not getting on long before February. It's not hard to understand why any player would want to wait and see what was going to happen with the manager before signing a new contract. Where does this idea of McKay being lazy come from? I can accept someone thinking his crossing wasn't good or him not taking chances but calling him lazy baffles me. No player in our side covered more ground than McKay and Holt in the last two seasons. Lazy? Anyway, he's gone and that's that, I think it was a big mistake by the club and another reason to question PC, that's a different thread. Good luck Barrie in Sherwood Forest.

For reasons I can't quite understand it seems 'we're' dividing into camps and these camps are becoming ever more intransigent. As someone who has firmly nailed his colours to the 'Doubting Pedro' camp let me be clear on a few things. I don't want him to fail, nothing would make me happier than for PC to prove to be a managerial visionary who transforms our club, indeed I'd accept him being simply really lucky and fluking the league next season. I'd happily eat lashings of humble pie and greedily accept Uiliem's accusations of effete, lady-boy, panic merchant status, Berliner's lectures on loyalty and Gaffer's sermon on the mount regarding my lack of faith, indeed I'd make them my posting signature for the coming season if they prove to be true. Be clear, I want Rangers to win, I want success, I want our new signings to settle and perform to a high standard. But also be clear, I, and I imagine all my fellow travellers in the Doubting Pedro camp, didn't welcome a 1-0 defeat to a Perthshire 11 yesterday and I don't want to see us get turned over by Gene Hackman's boys on Saturday. I'd love to see a glimmer of promise, something that helps me restore my faith. My growing scepticism of our current manager is not based on anything but his record as a manager both with us and before us. But I want to be wrong. At the same time, the 'Believe in Pedro' camp need to open their eyes to glaring evidence staring them in the face. Don't dismiss every defeat as unavoidable as we don't have the players yet, (Walter Smith took over from PLG and transformed the side in a matter of weeks by signing two ageing centre halves and an injury prone Kevin Thomson), don't dismiss every rumour of player unrest as 'last year's duds having a moan', experienced players know the difference between good and bad tactics and good and bad management and it's wilful self-harm to dismiss these stories as irrelevant. When the team takes to the pitch they get my full support. I assume they get Tannochside Bear's too, and Gribz and Craig's. My scepticism of Pedro is not the cause of our defeat to Progres or our loss to St Johnstone, rather these defeats, and others, are the reason for my scepticism. Don't make this a simple 'for or against' thing, it's not as black and white as that. At some point very soon PC needs to prove he can create a Rangers side that can compete with Celtic and Aberdeen and Hearts and beat the rest regularly, that's the minimum that's required. Let me know when you see that please.

Just so I understand is it the fans who are to blame for the result today? Well let me me be the first to apologise, I just hadn't realised my scepticism towards our manager would so affect our ability to defend and attack. My bad.

Okay, you're not a 'fan' of PC, it was shorthand for 'unstinting in your support and unhappy with criticism of him', but I accept your correction on that and I apologise. Has it leaked, I've not heard it anywhere else but here? Really, you don't care what our most experienced player thinks of our manager? I agree these things are better done in private, but is the training pitch private? Or the dressing room? It's an emotional industry, falling outs can't always be managed, sometimes a word or a phrase or an instruction can spark something. As I said Miller isn't a callow youth or particularly hot-headed, so if there's any truth to this I'd have thought it would be of concern to most Rangers supporters.

Why Gaffer? He's not some youngster with an attitude problem he's a pro with 19 years experience, nearly 600 first team appearances and 69 caps, he's played in four different countries and is regularly lauded for his professionalism and his aptitude and work-rate. If, and it's still a big if, if this is true don't you think it might be worth stepping back and wondering why the most experienced player in our squad is questioning our newish manager? I know you're a big fan of Pedro but doesn't any part of you wonder why someone like Miller would reach that conclusion?

How much have we spent this summer, does anyone know? I enjoy our resident Cameronian's regular Richard Gordon pieces too. Unfortunately I also think Aberdeen will finish second this season, as things stand, and think they've done pretty well in the transfer market so far with some shrewd buys. The felching going on between them and Celtic is nauseating though, and there seems little doubt Celtic are trying to help Aberdeen strengthen their squad. Be funny if Aberdeen knock them out of both cups and take 9 points off them next season, although maybe contractually they're not allowed too...

I've no specific insight into why the board's relationship with Warburton soured, it couldn't have been results because if it was PC would be gone by now, so it was something else or an accumulation of things. When Warburton joined he brought discipline, passion and determination, more importantly he brought organisation. Everyone knew what they were supposed to be doing. Warburton took a stuttering disjointed side, that had been humiliated by Motherwell in the play-off, and had them playing some of the finest football I've ever seen Rangers play within a couple of months. So, my question, how come it takes PC considerably longer to take a better squad than Warburton inherited into a cohesive, united winning side? I doubt either would have joined us if PC and his backroom side hadn't been with us. On paper they look like a step up, let's see how they settle and perform though. This is where I strongly disagree. We were playing a terrible side, genuinely the worst side we've ever drawn in Europe, and by your estimation we performed in one quarter of the tie. I saw no excellent play, I saw a team unsure of what they were doing and how they were meant to be playing. I saw a Progres side grow in confidence as the ineptitude of their opponents dawned on them and I saw a complete lack of tactical awareness, fight, passion and the kind of nous full-time professional players usually display when facing inferior opposition. For me it was a further demonstration of the managers inability to inspire a team and learn from his mistakes. Having got the measure of Progres in the first leg we should have ran out comfortable winners in the second, we knew how they played, we could see their strengths and their weaknesses. Well that defensive system was looking pretty poor last week and I'd hate to see what a half decent side do it. It's bizarre, because I look at this side and I can't see how we'll score goals or how we'll stop a decent side scoring. Miller's positioning is the least of our problems. An interesting point. If, and I'm not convinced he does favour youth, but if that turns out to be his style then he'll get fired. The Rangers support simply won't tolerate losing many games, young players or not, if someone at the club hasn't explained the reality of being Rangers manager to PC then all our conversations are moot. I'm staggered at the excuses that have been made for the defeat. How can you overlook the fact he has well paid, experienced players at his disposal? There's been a lot of re-writing of the Warburton era, our three best performances last season were Celtic at Parkhead under Murty and Aberdeen and Hearts at Ibrox under Warburton. We showed fight, grit, determination and periods of skill and tactical awareness. Those are the players PC inherited. Why has be unable to mould them into something resembling a side capable of beating part-timers from Luxembourg? Where was the 'bounce' that every manager achieves when he takes over a side that's been stuttering? The squad he took over was capable of beating Aberdeen at home, drawing with Celtic away and beating our poorest ever opponents in Europe. Yet we didn't and the blame for that must lie squarely with our manager. I'd be willing to give him all the time he needs if there was even a semblance of a footballing style to the side, if it was clear what his sides were trying to do on the pitch, and if we were showing improvement. I've seen none of those things. So fine, perhaps when Dorrans, Alves and the rest are fit and in the team we'll be better, we certainly should be, but all that's happened is we've put better players into our team, that doesn't demonstrate we've got a manager capable of inspiring performances, organising teams depending on opponents, seeing weaknesses in the opposition and capable of creating a side better than the sum of it's parts. That last point is important because that's what we're going to need to do to overhaul Celtic. They have more money and better players than us, so we need an alchemist and I've sen nothing from PC to suggest he's that. I'm sorry, when I read your words I hear Andrea Leadsom berating the interviewer for a lack of patriotism for questioning why she was making such a horlicks of Brexit. My loyalty to Rangers is unquestioning, my loyalty to any one individual at the club is not. I'm not normally a reactive or negative person, but most of what you've written is emotional, not factual. We might get better when better players are available, but this belief that PC is a capable manager able to deliver what Rangers need in even the medium term is sadly lacking from any analysis I've read of him.

Yip, fair enough, I've edited the post above. I should know better.

Okay, why? Why are you optimistic, what can you see that I can't. PC had a below average CV before joining us and has been mediocre since arriving, why do you still have faith?

Aha, the famous peaking of Luxembourg players in July syndrome, ach well, right enough I should cut Pedro some slack, how are we supposed to expect him to deal with that massive disadvantage.

All fair points. I was publicly sceptical of him when appointed but I was genuinely willing to give him time, however I've seen enough to believe he's not the man. A good manager would have got a 'bounce' out of the existing squad, he'd have got some of the fringe players performing and some of the better ones too. That he didn't, coupled with some horrific results, have convinced me he's not the man for us. I accept that some of the new signings should improve our side, but we really didn't need international players to deal with Progres. I'm not concerned about how the players would react. They're professionals, they'll all have seen managers come and go before, they'll adapt or move on, that's football. I actually think we've got the makings of a okay squad and managed properly they could achieve something.

I've been thinking of who the worst side we've ever been drawn against in Europe is. I think it's Progres but I could accept Gota from the Faroes might have been worse. They were Faroe champions at the time though so they might be expected to beat the 4th best side in Luxembourg. Valletta of Malta are pretty poor too. Again they were Champions when we last met them but not when we met them in the 80s. To be fair we did score a barrel load against them that time. Anyone I've missed?

Hang about dB, do you really think Progres are anything but the the worst side we've ever been drawn against in Europe? Have I misunderstood you on that? And do you feel this defeat excusable because Pedro can't be expected to organise and motivate well paid professional players to beat the worst side we've ever met because he didn't buy them? Is that the argument dB?

Gaffer, you're not the manager of Rangers and with respect if you're comparing your job to his we're wasting our time. The manager of Rangers doesn't get to have 'shocking days', if he has one he gets criticised very publicly, if he has a few close together he gets fired, we don't accept second best and that's why we're the most successful club side in the world. You might think that's unfair, but it's reality. I can probably accept losing a match, I can't accept losing the tie, that's simply unacceptable. I don't get these excuses I keep reading about lack of fitness, whether physical or mental. That's Pedro's job, if he's sending out sides that aren't mentally fit then he should be fired. There are no excuses for that, bullshit that it's harder to attack than defend, he's going to be facing a season of 10 men behind the ball in Scotland and he must surely know that by now. If we're not prepared for teams defending doggedly then we're in for a longer season than even I fear. I didn't call them a pub team, but let's be clear they are a semi-pro side who finished fourth in the league of a country who are currently ranked 48th out of 55 European countries. Two of the countries below them are rocks in the sea, two are mountain tax havens and one is a war zone. They might beat the Dog and Duck first eleven on Glasgow Green on a Saturday morning but lets not pretend they are anything other than the poorest side Rangers have ever met in European football before now, because they are.

That's the dilemma the board face. If they sack him now and admit he was a mistake they'll be criticised and their judgement to appoint a manager will be questioned. But on the plus side they'll have removed the problem early and have another chance to make a better appointment. If they choose to wait until Christmas, when we're fighting for fourth, out the League Cup and playing to half full stadiums then they can say 'we gave him time and backed him but it didn't work out'. That looks better for them but next season is a write off and we've wasted 12 months. I'm not some hot head who hounds a manager after a bad result. I normally plead patience. I went down with the good ship Le Guen, Bluedell might remember heated pleas to give him more time and backing on another forum at the time. I even backed McCoist because he was a club legend and held the club together during some difficult times when I felt he deserved more respect. But I can't see any reason to keep Pedro. I'm sure PC is a lovely guy but he's never good enough to manage Rangers, he simply doesn't have what it takes and the sooner he's relieved of his duties the better for both him and us because it's going to get horrible for him once the season begins. Glasgow is an unforgiving football city when things aren't going well.

Meaningless? He's shown himself unable to read a match, exert no influence on one as it plays out and unable to motivate a side to improve their performance against the same side the following week. Twice. It's not meaningless it was a less than subtle reminder that the hammering we received from Celtic wasn't a one off. Actually, it was meaningless if we choose to ignore it.

They bloody qualified JFK, we got put out. Freak results do happen, but not over two legs they don't. And you're not seriously suggesting we'll go the rest of the season unbeaten, are you? I'll be astonished if we make it through August unbeaten.

Who? Who has had a worse start than this?