JohnMc

Not sure if I've used this for a similar answer, but...

 

 

I'd much rather Big Sam than McInnes. He's better at a 'similar' approach, and actually more progressive than many suspect -- he just prefers a more pragmatic approach.

I think you're 100% correct that we need a pragmatist at the helm. Allerdyce though really worries me. He's from the Sammy Lee/Frank McParland school of economics.

Your Mrs will be delighted....

Too many amusing quips from you recently, Billy Boy, we're supposed to be somber and disappointed. *

*(Personally I'm elated PC's gone, but don't tell anyone)

Whoever comes in will want to look at Halliday and O'Halleron, both are capable of playing at SPFL level successfully if managed correctly. I was told in the summer Halliday went out on loan because he didn't want to leave Rangers and he felt Pedro wouldn't see out the season giving him a chance to impress his successor.

The guy who gave Pedro the job should be following him out the door. A club the size of Rangers appointing a manager with no record of achievement is unbelievable.

I'm no cheerleader for Pedro but that's not fair. Jock Wallace had no record of achievement and neither did Alex McLeish or Davie White, Souness had never managed anyone, Walter Smith had never managed anyone, John Grieg hadn't either, and of course Bill Struth.

Scott Symon, Willie Waddell, Dick Advocaat and PLG did. Some work and some don't. Pedro's appointment was baffling, not just because he'd no record of achievement but because he'd no experience of British far less Scottish football, he'd only managed at a fairly ordinary level and without distinction. For all McLeish's faults he'd improved both Hibs and Motherwell when he'd managed them. Pedro didn't improve any side he managed.

Pedro was a gamble and a peculiar appointment, but it shouldn't discount us appointing someone who hasn't won anything as a manager I don't think.

Good enough to win if the ref does his job correctly.

 

Too many blinded by the fact we are not Rangers of old and never will be again. We are good enough to beat the team facing us but we are not good enough to beat the team and the referee facing us.

 

No manager is going to change that. None.

 

If not for referees we are in second spot 4 points better of at a bare minimum. The football bar a couple of minor tweaks is as good as we are going to get.

 

People need to wake up and stop blaming players and managers and boards for not being able to surmount the task before us. Its never going to happen.

 

You can't play your way out of this, it's impossible. They will just come down harder on us or give more ludicrous decisions (if possible at this point). We have seen players assaulted by fans, and by other players with no recourse. Our officials abused pretty much every game by the opposition dugout. Threats made by players and managers alike pretty game followed through on and left unpunished. People off the park changing referees decisions mid game. Players sent off for being attacked. Players taken out the game through on goal 3/4 times already and no foul given. And thats just a few of fthe obstackes .We have no chance

 

We are what we are. A very poor side with no financial might in a very poor league with a competitor who earns 3 times as much as us with all infrastructure aimed against us. A support who is hated but cant stick together.

 

We are hated and need to do more than most to succeed. Buying more players or managers ain't going to change anything.

 

The only vast improvement we could see in the near future is for the cheating to stop and our position to rise as a result.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Kilmarnock are a poor side, the poorest in the league, yet if it wasn't for Fod we'd have lost last night. Frankly the ref blowing when he did was a blessing, our corners are more likely to create a chance for the opposition than they are for us.

You blame referees if you like but it's simply excuses, we're not good enough, we've no fight, no leaders and, it seems, we're lacking in fitness. We collapse half way through the second half far too frequently for it to be coincidence. After Sunday's disappointment facing the side bottom of the league, at home, was the perfect next match. We should have horsed Killie, the players should have been so motivated to prove all doubters wrong, to back the manager and to take out their frustrations on someone. We didn't. Something is lacking at the club, whether it's team spirit, pride, organisation, belief or a mix of all of them, but it's not the fault of referees and Ryan Jack is a naive fool. It's not the fault of referees that Morelos isn't being given the time and space he was earlier in the season. It's not the fault of referees Tav doesn't try and cut out deep crosses, it's not the fault of referees that Aaron Nemane looks out of his depth, it's not the fault of referees that Windass and John couldn't shoot for for toffee last night and it's not the fault of referees that Pena really doesn't look like he's suited to the Scottish game.

Scottish refereeing is poor, but so is Scottish football. But there's no conspiracy among referees to hamper Rangers, there just isn't, and believing that exists is stopping you seeing what's clearly wrong with our club.

It's difficult to tell what Jack actually did but I don't have much sympathy.

 

At the game I thought he'd stamped on Broadfoot and he certainly seemed to kick out but perhaps it was a reaction to Broadfoot trying to stamp on him. Broadfoot then cheated by going down theatrically.

 

None of this excuses Jack's actions. Walk away - simple as that.

But focusing on the final minutes is too wilfully ignore the previous 90. We weren't good enough to beat the bottom side in our league, at home. That's the stark, cold truth and focusing on the referee distracts from the enormous deficiencies in our squad and club. That's not aimed at you by the way.

Whilst that may be true, there is literally no argument that the ref’s farcical actions at the end didn’t have a direct impact on Kilmarnock getting the draw.

Did the ref miss our penalty then? If that goes in it's 2-0 and game over. This hysteria over referees is blinding too many people from the very real problems we currently have.

In Pedro's defence.

We played four teenagers tonight, any side with that amount of inexperienced players is going to make mistakes.

He's got no leaders. Wallace is injured and Miller out of favour. A lot is expected of Alves but he's not a captain, he's been here only a few months, his English is good but he shouldn't be captain.

He's got no luck. Seriously, I know you make your own luck and all that but PC is one unlucky manager.

We can't score goals. Morelos is now a known quantity for defenders and no one else in the current side looks like they can score currently.

However, in the end the buck stops with PC. He picks the side he decides the tactics. We need to be able to beat the bottom club, at home, when 1-0 up in the 89th minute and just been given a penalty.

It's a funny old game, isn't it?

Naebodies laughing dB, not tonight.

Yeah a ref taking nine minutes over a penalty changing a yellow to red ,failing to spot 3 stamps. that player then continuing to cross for a goal less than a minute later as players are still back in the Killie half arguing had zero impact nor stopping the game minutes early with us having a corner!. He had direct influence on the result .

 

His sequence of mistakes led to a goal plain and simple. Normal refereeing sees no red for us and them down to ten with us having a penalty 2 minutes from time . Instead we see what occurred tonight. Clear influence literally couldn't be any clearer cut.

It's 1-0 to us, at home.

It's the 89th minute.

We're awarded a penalty.

Yip, the ref, realising he'd awarded a penalty by mistake and would be receiving a roasting from Steven McLean and Craig Thomson in the morning quietly suggested to well known arch Rangers hater Kirk Broadfoot that he antagonise a Rangers player so he could send him off, knowing that would almost certainly lead to the penalty being saved and allow another well known Rangers hater, Chris Burke, to score an equaliser. You're right, it's obvious, how could I not have seen it before, it couldn't be any clearer...

I don't think anyone is blaming the ref for the result, but for the farce it descended into, which once again bit us in the tail, not anyone else. Killie sure deserved their point from their second half display, but likewise had we ground out the result we craved for, who would have agreed to that?

I don't think you've been reading the thread then.

At 1-0 up and awarded a penalty in the 89th minute there's no way we should draw.

Was it a penalty ? If so then you can hardly use that as justification that there is no conspiracy. He would simply have been doing his job and getting it right.

 

If, on the other hand, what has been stated this evening about numerous incidents which went against us... then at some point you have to question whether they are simply mistakes or something entirely more sinister.

It was, but I've seen them not given. I suggest you watch the match Craig before pulling me up on it.

What has that got to do with the umpteen fouls our players have suffered without little or any action by the referees?

It's got everything to do with tonight's result dB, keep up.

Firstly a foul in the box is not always a red card. The ball was not travelling goal-wards so you can argue if the foul was a yellow card tackle. Jack was a Jackass and opened himself up to get red. He really has the brains of a tin of Batchelors Mushy peas. You may argue about 2 minutes but we had 80+ minutes to score before that. The referee did not lose us these points.

Thank you, I was beginning to think everyone on Gersnet had taken leave of their senses. How anyone can be blaming the referee for tonight's result is beyond me. We're one nil up in the 89th minute and the ref awards us a penalty. Aye, it's the ref's fault we drew.

You know guys the referee conspiracy theory would hold a lot more water if we hadn't been awarded a penalty in the 89th minute whilst 1-0 up.

You're missing what I'm trying to say here John -I'm not interested in decisions made in games not involving Rangers. I'm complaining about the treatment and punishments being meted out to Rangers players and staff.

This has been going on for ages and nobody apart from Rangers fans seems to or wants to notice it is going on. Our players are being booted up and down the park without anything happening. On the rare occasion it is punished it is only too obvious the referee can't wait to redress the balance by taking action against one of our guys.

The whole compliance officer thing is simply downright corrupt.

When other clubs start struggling financially maybe those holding the power will ensure we see some fairness in the game.

Respectfully Boabie, you specifically asked for decisions that have gone against Celtic, so you're right I am missing what you're trying to say.

Everyone agrees the refereeing standard is simply not good enough, there's no argument there. But how does starving St Johnstone of away supporters twice a season change that and how does telling our support they can't watch our side change that? All clubs are already struggling financially, Scottish football is in a terrible state currently. The compliance officer system is a nonsense and needs overhauled. To do that we need to engage with other clubs, not piss them off. I mean it's simple human nature Boabie, if I want you to support me on something are you more likely to do it if I'm friendly to you or if I threaten you?

If you want to stick your head in the sand John and call us all paranoid, fair enough. The mounting evidence suggests otherwise. Numerous performances from officials that can’t be explained? Ignore it at your leisure.

 

We are getting nowhere until we face what is effectively retrospective gratuitous vengeance and punishment, from those who feel they are untouchable. I understand that’s its so blatant some will find it impossible to accept. Impossible to admit it to themselves.

 

I couldn’t give two hoots about any of the other clubs. They all tried to kill us off remember? They still sing to liewells tune and put the boot in when necessary. They will spit on us at every opportunity.

What's my head in the sand about Coop? I've not called anyone paranoid. Do you think Steven McLean is deliberately biased against Rangers or just not a very good referee?

No I do't think that at all. If I did then the charge of 'Rangers statement is paranoid' by many journalists would have some degree of weight to it.However so far the only player cited for actions that happened on the park is Alves. I'm confused as to why a waist high challenge on Morelos went completely unpunished during the game, no foul, no card and apparently merits no examination by the CO. The challenge wasn't late, it wasn't a swing and a miss catching him on the follow through, like Garners last year... remember how much attention that got in the media? It was a deliberate waist height challenge taking a player out with no attempt to play the ball. According to Sutton it was a foul but that's kinda it as Morelos apparently goes down too easily. Why its not considered to be dangerous or even violent conduct because it was deliberate and should merit examination from the Co I have no idea. There were many, many more challenges and fouls in Sundays game that went unnoticed than there were that were noticed.

 

Further to that its quite noticeable, commentary during games and the MSM, how Rangers players are expected to behave during games, if they don't they are cited by CO, while others are admonished. The issue I have with it is that Mr Mc Leans performance was one of incompetence bordering on negligence and as far as I'm concerned he should never referee another professional match again. Is it going to take a player from any team getting a head knock and collapsing on the pitch for the authorities to take action against this because if it is, I tell you right now, my heart goes out to the poor player and their family if that is the case.

 

EDIT: Incidentally my opinion on the Morelos challenge which the referee clearly seen as he was looking at it as it happened was that he bottled it. He knew it was a foul knew if he stopped the game for it the Well player would have to go and so he bottled it. Do your job!

I agree, McLean was terrible on Sunday and citing (thanks for the spelling lesson!!) Alves is bizarre. But how will boycotting other clubs make any difference to that. We need other clubs to put pressure on the authorities to improve the standard of refereeing and to change the brutalist style of football in Scotland. I don't know about you but threats tend not to work so well with Scots in my experience.

John Mc - " We need to be careful here. It's not Hearts, or St Johnstone's or Ross County's fault that Scottish referees are poor and quite how boycotting their grounds improves that situation is currently lost on me. "

 

A couple of questions; when these constantly poor decisions are made against Rangers who is it that benefits ? Certainly not Rangers.

Who is it outside Ibrox who benefits from the Blue Pound ?

Do you forget that it was Celtic who brought about the referees strike ? Could you point me in ANY contentious decision that has gone AGAINST Celtic since the referees took action ?

My point is, we as Rangers fans have very few options left to us apart from causing harm to the rest of our league. Our board released a statement. Our fans reps have done nothing that I've seen. So what other action can we take ?

Well the penalty Hibs got on Saturday was a terrible decision and their fullback got his jaw broken in the Scottish Cup Final and the player responsible wasn't punished. That's just off the top of my head, they are the only matches I've seen them play recently that didn't also involve us.

I've no problem with us complaining about Alves being singled out, it's a complete joke. But to then call for boycotts of matches seems like a massive jump in logic to me.

Serious question; do any of the posters on here think Steven McLean purposely decided to ignore poor tackles and dangerous play because he wanted Rangers to lose on Sunday? Are there posters on here that think Steven McLean is deliberately anti-Rangers?

For what it's worth I don't.

We need to be careful here. It's not Hearts, or St Johnstone's or Ross County's fault that Scottish referees are poor and quite how boycotting their grounds improves that situation is currently lost on me. I've also yet to read or hear any of the media supporting the ref on Sunday, everyone I've heard has criticised the refereeing performance, particularly the assault on Cardosa. Every supporter I've spoken too since Sunday, even Celtic supporters, agreed it was a terrible decision.

I find myself in agreement with Tannochside Bear again. If we want to affect change at the SFA and the SPFL we need to box clever and we need to find allies. Craig, don't judge the world by social media, most people aren't rabid hatred driven moon howlers. I've actually been surprised at the attitude of many supporters I've met recently, most are bored with the 'punish Rangers' narrative still being pushed and are quite happy to 'move on'.

The siting of Alves from Sunday is baffling only in that he's the only one. None of us can complain he's been sited, he deserves to be, just why hasn't Bowman been too. I can only assume the booking Moult got on Sunday was for the kick during the Alves incident and so it's been deemed to have been dealt with. But lashing out at every other club in the league is not going to make any difference to this decision or similar ones in the future. One thing we've learned about Scottish football recently is it's propensity for self-harm. If anyone thinks us boycotting going to Kilmarnock matches is going to somehow lead to changes in how referees and compliance officers work I'd say they've not been paying attention recently.

But how is it fair if the tactics that they use are illegal by the laws of the game? What is even the point in continuing?

 

Thomson’s tackle was a cruncher yes, but we’re now talking about players getting broken bones and it being deemed acceptable (well when it’s a Rangers player).

Centre halves get broken noses StuGers, it's not right but it's always happened and will continue to happen. The ex-Man Utd defender Vidic was in the papers at the weekend and told how he'd had his nose broken half a dozen times. Stephen Caldwell had his nose broken by Duncan Ferguson in a reserve match and they were mates with each other. I'm struggling to think of a centre-half who hasn't had their nose broken, or cheekbone or lost their front teeth at some point.

It's not just us either. We might not like to hear that but it's the truth. That Celtic full back had his jaw broken in the Scottish cup final and the player who did it stayed on the park and if the penalty that Hibs got on Saturday had been given to Motherwell yesterday we'd have been rightly furious. Football is a physical sport, sometime too physical, but we can either learn to deal with it or we can get used to losing.

Kevin Thomson did a series of interviews recently and he spoke about joining Rangers. The interviewer (an ex-Celtic player I'd never heard of) asked him if he noticed a big difference in the training from his time at Hibs, no, he replied, the Rangers squad I joined wasn't great, PLG had just left and recently appointed Walter Smith was rebuilding. Thomson explained that when playing Celtic Smith instructed his players to turn the game into a fight, a battle. Celtic had better players and if Rangers went toe-to-toe with them football wise Celtic would win, but turn the match into a battle and Rangers would. Thomson said that's what Rangers did. There's a famous clip of Thomson putting a thunderous tackle onto Robbie Keane then throwing him to the ground as he begins to remonstrate. Rangers bullied Celtic into submission.

I was reminded of this watching yesterday's match.

We actually looked quite good for the first half hour or so. Composed, knocking the ball about and controlling the match, but for all that we didn't create many actual chances and our final ball was poor. But once Motherwell remembered they were in a cup semi-final we'd no answer. They wanted to win more, they'd a greater desire and most damning for me they finished the stronger side when they should have been on ropes hanging on for a result. We chucked it with 15 minutes still to go. That's particularly galling as the Motherwell defence contained more than one bomb-scare in it.

I don't remember seeing a more anonymous performance from a Rangers player than from Pena yesterday. Surely Holt, or even Hardie, or dare I say it Miller, would have contributed more to the match? Windass at least was involved in the match for spells, albeit he was poor. Singling players out is unfair though as there's a collective lack of leaders and winners in the side. No team should chuck it with 15 to go in a cup semi-final, particularly no Rangers side. The experienced players, the Dorrans, the Jacks and the Alves need to take responsibility for that.

The ref did have a poor match, but so did the ref in the semi-final the day before. If we blame the ref for yesterday's result we're never going to address the problem. Scottish football is physical, too physical, it has been for years. However that's the league we play in and those are the types of sides we need to beat. So buy players and use tactics accordingly. Because rest assured every other player and manager in our league watched that game yesterday and saw a Rangers side that doesn't like a battle and will chuck it when the going gets tough and so will use those exact tactics against us.

I thought that was found to be a load of shite ?

Was it? I hadn't heard that.

We, as fans, (not aimed at you specifically John) will take whatever piece of news we wish to in order to justify the position we wish to take.

 

We will, on the one hand, say that the Record or the Sun publishes nothing but shite and is anti-Rangers to the core - but the second we see an article which backs our own position we consider it gospel.

 

Fickle bunch we are.

 

That said, we have heard NOTHING from our custodians for MONTHS - now, if they are working feverishly in the background then great - but even some soundbites every now and again would be great. We need some form of positivity just now, because there is none - and there is a dark cloud looming over everything Rangers - AGAIN !

I'm not one of the 'ban all papers' brigade. I've no doubt that today's story came directly from Miller or one of his associates. It's true in so much as it's his version of what's happened. PC might have a different version. I've actually really tried to be less negative about PC in recent weeks, but it's not easy you know!

"....a player who still commands a lot of respect from his fellow professionals and one looked up too by most of the players at Ibrox..." i think this holds only insofar as he is worth his place. This season, that is, to be kind, debatable.

No it doesn't. This isn't about his ability as a player it's about the respect he commands from his fellow pros. It's about how he deals with his team-mates, how he trains, behaves and conducts himself. It's the same in any walk of life, the best player isn't always the most respected.

"Caixinha has struggled to manage British players..." He seems to have little trouble managing Foderingham. Alnwick, Tavernier, Jack, Hodson, John, Windass, latterly McCrorie, and was hell bent on acquiring the Scottish lad from Hertz, and seems intent on signing McLean from Aberdeen.

He shouted at Dorrans, apparently, and if the player has thrown the toys out for that, then i m h o, he is perhaps at the wrong Club, if not in the wrong profession.

Fod, Tav, Dorrans and Jack have been first choice picks. Fod has done well, Tav looks no better or worse than last season, Jack's done okay but he not the unqualified success some seem to think he is. Dorrans, for me, has been disappointing, I think he's a better player than we've seen and is largely out of position playing deep. Hodson plays one in five, Alnwick not even that and John has barely played one match. Windass is, at best, inconsistent and McCrorie has played one and a bit games. Hardie isn't getting a sniff and Wallace seems to keep picking up niggley injuries. I don't think managing is just about picking players for the team, it's about getting the best out of them. PC isn't doing that with most of those players.

"The form of Garner, Waghorn and O'Halloran further shows that properly managed all three were capable of far more than we saw." tell me that at the end of the season. We had these players long enough, and they performed neither for Warburton nor Caixinha. Are we to assume that they are football wizards and that both managers are to be blame for their consistent poor form?

Okay, we'll compare notes again in a few months time.

B]"...you can't win anything without players on your side and buying into your methods." you've got that one right. However, who should bend: player or coach? Should players dictate the coaches method(s), for which, we may assume, he was hired in the first place.

Management is getting the best out of the resources he has. How's that working out then? He can send half of them to the under-20s as long as he keeps winning matches, if he's not then he's got a problem.

I agree with some of that and there's no doubt when a manager starts jhaving problems with players it can badly affect performances.

 

However, the same players shouldn't be above criticism themselves. Miller has been very poor this season so won't get a lot of sympathy from me as to being dropped (more so if he's ran like a wee boy to Jacko).

 

I'm also not sure where PC is struggling to coach British players. The vast majority of the players you mentioned were correctly moved on (I'd have kept Hill until January and perhaps Halliday as cover). Similarly, guys like Wes, Tav and Jack have all done reasonably well this season so far. Windass and Dorrans have been less effective but I wouldn't put that all down to the manager - though certainly agree it was negligence on his part not to sign a proper left midfielder.

 

All in all, I find all this to be a mountain out of a molehill. Our start to the season has been an average one at best but a win tonight and we're doing OK. Yes, dropped points at home to Hearts and away to Partick as well as another defeat to Celtic are frustrating but those results are not unique to Pedro. The Hibs game we can blame on the officials obviously...

 

I'm not sure what fans are expecting. Yes, we want better results and performances but I think we need a it more time before we can judge all the actors in this particular play. A play which is not quite a farce yet.

Listen, I agree, all PC needs to do is string a run of victories together and all of this is forgotten, it's that simple.

The British players thing occurred to me a few weeks back but was brought into the open during the week when it was reported that he'd criticised the British players for not welcoming him enough. It certainly looks like someone close to Miller spoke to the Record, if not the player himself, and telling stories out of class doesn't win anyone any friends among the support. But I'm careful of not confusing the messenger with the message.