JohnMc

I'm the opposite: McLaren is interesting -- although I don't think he's quite right -- and Moyes is terrifying!!

That's interesting, why?

so what if PC's successor fares no better ? get shot of him too & start all over again ?

what guarantee is there a new manager will get more out of this squad as AJ dangerously suggested recently.

 

The problem we have is we need better quality players & to get rid off the deadwood MW & Pedro brought. It's that simple. It's where the funding for this will come from that's the issue & whether we can attract the right calibre of manager

 

And SAF dealt with the indiscipline he inherited when he took over at Man Utd by getting rid off the likes of Whiteside& McGrath.

Again with the comparing Sir Alex and Pedro, it's bizarre.

For the record Ferguson took over Man Utd in 1986 but Whiteside didn't leave until 1989. He'd handed in a transfer request because he was unhappy with new contract talks stalling. Ferguson's issue with Whiteside was his appalling injury record, something born out by his eventual retiring from football at only 26. Whiteside also credits Ferguson with negotiating his contract with Everton, the best he'd ever had as a professional and he has never criticised Ferguson. Likewise Mcgrath left Man Utd in 1989, and again Ferguson's issues with McGrath were around injuries. McGrath was offered retirement and a testimonial by Ferguson but he felt he could play on and left for Aston Villa. McGrath did indeed play on but has serious mobility issues today. The fact McGrath was an alcoholic and Whiteside a big drinker is often used as the reason but it's not, Ferguson couldn't have cared if both were hammered when playing as long as they played and played well, but big salaried players sitting on the treatment table wasn't something Ferguson would tolerate.

As for PC's successor, yes, if he doesn't deliver better results he'll be removed too. This is a results business, they know what they're getting into. I agree with AJ, the squad should be producing better results than it has, certainly better consistency.

Isn't Alex Neil the Preston manager just now and doing pretty well with them? I'd be amazed if he applied for the Rangers job, I might accept it if he was out of work but not whilst in a job and in a position to move up to the EPL next year.

Moyes is interesting and McLaren terrifying. His Dutch title is a massive outlier in an otherwise under achieving CV.

Surely it's also a manager's job to get shot of a player that is causing problems? Sir Alex had no hesitation in shafting a player, and players far superior to Miller.

 

MOH was crap, Miller was causing problems, Forrester has always been a problem fitness-wise, Dodoo I'm not sure about to be honest; what other manager would put up with that. PC is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this situation.

Well let's agree on something at the beginning; Pedro is no Sir Alex so comparing them is futile.

I don't know what you do for a living Rousseau so you might already have experience of this. If you manage a group of people at any one time some of them will be less happy than the rest. If those people are on performance bonuses that they're not achieving then they might be vocal about their unhappiness and if they believe that their ability to achieve their bonus is being held back by you, their manager, you can expect that disquiet to only grow.

PC didn't have a discipline problem, he had a failure to win matches problem. Every manager faces discipline problems, but if your side is winning regularly those problems are easier to deal with because you're in a position of strength.

Why do you think Graeme Murty brought on Hardie at the weekend, for all of 30 seconds? It wasn't tactical and we were already 3-1 up and Hearts had chucked it so the result wasn't in much danger. No, it was so he could get an appearance bonus and a win bonus. That's good management. Hardie won't have had many of them this season, and as a young striker not getting a game for a side that wasn't winning as often as it should he was almost certainly getting hacked off and questioning his future. In one go a player is appeased and given hope. How do you think Hardie will have been in training this week?

O'Halleron isn't 'crap'. Whether he'll ever make it at Rangers is moot, but publicly criticising him was a bizarre thing to do. MO'H had made no comment by that point after all, and the fact he'd found some form at St Johnstone I'd have thought would have drawn praise from PC whether he meant it or not. No one likes to hear their friends slagged off in public, MO'H has friends in the Rangers squad. No one likes to see their friends embarrassed in public, Kenny Miller has friends in the Rangers squad. Any manager who feels he has to do that is either lacking self-confidence or hasn't figured out how to manage professional footballers.

But as I said all of this wouldn't have mattered a jot if his side could have won the important matches. Had we beaten Progress and Motherwell and given Celtic more of a game than we did PC would still be manager. That was his problem.

I just hope that whoever gets the job can unite the fans, maintain discipline in the dressing room and reignite the enthusiasm. I've been bitterly disappointed recently, and not so much at the results, although they can hurt too.

 

For any player (i.e. Miller) to use an agent in the press in the way he did is completely unacceptable to me. I wouldn't care if that player was Messi. He should have been out of the club. Instead, the club appears to get rid of the manager and then reinstate Miller to the first team. In the short term it appears to have worked because he got the win, however in the medium to long term this sends out all the wrong signals and I really hoped our club was better than that. I think the board needs to take a long hard think about the importance of discipline in a club, because we appear to have lost it. It was always one of those attributes that made us a club of class and respect, and I was always proud of that. Not now!

 

As for the departure of the manager, I'm also very disappointed. I really wanted it to work with him because he brought many things to the club that I liked and respected. I'd have given him longer but I can understand the board's decision to do something now. For the first time in a very long time, it appeared we had a manager who had a very real and modern system. The players we had (and still have) are skilful enough to play that system, but what it showed is that they lack the toughness which is unfortunately a massive part of the game up here. When teams came for a fight, we didn't have the players who were up for it. In those games, we just didn't earn the right to play football.

 

Until we find a new manager, I have to be honest and say that I'm struggling to find much to be enusiastic about, and as possibly one of the forum's most optimistic members, I don't know how the majority are feeling now. We can bring in a manager who gets us winning, and that will be fine for a while, but I personally need more than that. I need us to have an identity and an attractive style. Smith won us plenty of trophies, but without Laudrup and Gazza, there was very little by way of exciting play. I like McInnes as a person and for what he's achieved, but I seriously doubt if he can bring what's needed. I know Aberdeen fans are enjoying winning, but there's no way I could watch that 'quality' of football each week.

 

So, it's now over to the board and staff at the club to deliver. For the first time in a while, I don't know who we are playing next, and I'm not particularly bothered either. I hate feeling this way about my team, but I can't help it. I noticed a few people saying we should take our time to get the right man in. That makes sense, but I can't imagine my enthusiasm returning until such times as we have an interesting appointment to support. Please make it quick!

For what it's worth I read your post and heard an echo of my own voice when PLG left. I so wanted him to succeed and was gutted when he left after his spat with Ferguson et al. I was even more depressed when Walter then returned.

Yet, now, I can see it was the right decision. PLG had lost the dressing room, his side wasn't gelling, his signings weren't all we'd hoped they were and he was selling the best player in the country because he was struggling to manage him. The fact I wanted him to succeed and turn us into a continental, progressive side capable of competing on a bigger stage than Scotland didn't mean he was going to achieve it. Ironically Walter then did just that taking us to the Uefa Cup Final.

I know you'd bought into Pedro and believed in the direction he was trying to take us in. I also know you know I didn't, and felt he was completely out of his depth at Rangers. We've spoken about it before publicly and privately.

Whoever we bring in needs to be winning and quickly. No Rangers manager can survive on the results Pedro was getting. So pragmatism is needed at first. Once the side is winning, once the mentality is right then work can be done on finesse and elegance. We're football fans, we're never satisfied. Win a cup and we'll celebrate but soon demand the league. Win the league and we'll celebrate but soon demand progress in Europe. Deliver in Europe and we'll celebrate but soon demand free-flowing attacking football with homegrown starlets and international galacticos. For now a Rangers side with back-bone, fight and a winning mentality will do, if we can get that we can start to demand the next step. With respect though PC wasn't delivering that and no amount of time was going to change that.

Lick your wounds and hang in there, it's amazing how a few victories can change the perspective.

Michael Grant is well connected at Aberdeen for what it's worth.

The only reason McInnes would turn down the Rangers job is if he still fancies managing in England and is waiting for an opportunity to come up that's not a basket case club like Sunderland.

Whilst St Johnstone manager he lived in Renfrewshire commuting to Perth and apparently it took a while before he finally moved to Aberdeen. His family is in the central belt, that'll be a lure. Managing Rangers would make him financially secure for the rest of his life, he'd have the opportunity to not only manage one of the great clubs and one he knows well but also a genuine chance to win things. He's not going to achieve much more at Aberdeen than he has already.

Couple of points:

You mention PC alienating players, yet you/we don't know the full story behind it. One thing of note, PC remained pretty tight-lipped about most of the players you mention.

Well he wasn't tight-lipped about O'Halleron was he?

Lets looks at some possible scenarios:

 

Krancjar: Regularly injured & struggles for fitness - possibly told he has no future at the club as a result, goes in the huff & talks to media

Wallace: Injured - possibly told or realises that Declan John is performing better, possibly been told he's no longer captain, goes in the huff & talks to media

Miller: Dropped from team due to poor performances, goes in the huff & talks to media

O'Hallaran: Struggled to get a game under MW, couldn't get a game under PC, no buyers so goes out on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

McKay: Couldn't agree new contract, too greedy

Forrester: Didn't impress manager, sent on loan, no buyers so sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

Hill: Contract ended, manager didn't want to renew

Halliday: Told he'd probably get very few games (not good enough), no buyers, sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

 

I have absolutely no knowledge of what went on in ANY of these cases, but not a single one of the scenarios stated above is beyond belief.....and every one of them makes the manager look bad, through the players own actions.

How is ANY boss supposed to combat that???

Come on Darthter, you just made all that up! Here's the thing, a managers job is to manage his players. In around six months PC managed to fall out with around 9 first team players, that's a third of the squad and that's the ones we know about. You can peddle the theory that it's the fault of all the players, despite some of them being experienced internationals with no previous record or reputation for being difficult to manage. Or, we can look at the obvious reason; Pedro. I'm sorry but if you've got to manage 20 or so people and you manage to alienate that many of them in a short period of time perhaps the issue isn't them, it's you.

With regard to Miller....exactly what did PC say to publicly humiliate him??? I actually don't recall PC saying ANYTHING about MIller - it was all dragged out & discussed in the media.

It's what he did, not what he said. He sent him to play in London with the under 17s. That's very publicly making a point, a point that didn't go down very well with his players. By all means drop Miller, but if you're going to humiliate him then your side better be winning and backing you. They weren't, the rest is history.

As for it happening again, we'll cross that bridge if we cross it.

Tell me, during the Russian revolution were you on the side of the Czar? What about when the Bastille fell, would you have grumbled about the lack of discipline among the peasants and how was Louis XVI expected to manage?

Has no one on here had a bad manager in their working life? I certainly have, I've also been a bad manager, or at least one who made mistakes that with hindsight I'd do differently if given the choice again.

The extrapolation that we've a problem with discipline because the manager dropped Kenny Miller is a puzzling one.

Let's start with the manager. PC had some strengths, but he also had some weaknesses and one of those was an ability to alienate players. As well as Miller and latterly Kranjkar, Dorrans and Wallace he also had public spats with O'Halleron, Barrie McKay and Forrester, fell out with Andy Halliday and was unable to convince Clint Hill to extend his stay at the club. For me that points to there being a clear problem with the manager.

Good managers are able to manage players, the clue is in the name. That means getting the best out of them, even if they might be players they don't fancy long term. The smart manager figures out very quickly who the influential players in the dressing room are. These are normally the experienced ones, the club captain and so on. Either get them on side or get them out, that's management day 1.

The key issue is make sure if you're going to humiliate a popular and influential player, like Miller, make sure you're doing it from a position of strength. That largely involves winning your matches, do that and almost anything is forgiven. Miller doesn't have the reputation of being a trouble-maker. He's sat in many dressing rooms and seen good and bad sides, he might even have some insights into how a stuttering side might improve.

We're confusing poor man-management with ill-discipline without realising the two might be connected.

Is there a Scotland manager in place? If not who has picked this team?

Isn't it Scott Brown that decides who plays?

I wanted only honesty in assesement of pedro.

 

If you mean i wanted him to be successful and there for years i sure did.

 

All i ever did was correct wrong assumptions or fake facts.

 

I would do that for mccall as well though he wouldnt be my choice.

Are you going all Donald Trump on us now Gunslinger?

Your not reading and comprehending at a high school level yet are you.

 

Nice try

You're....

Doesn't jim McIntyre have a league cup win for Ross County? Same as Derek McInnes has for Aberdeen

It was, you're right, scrub McIntyre from the short list.

Do you know what pedro has won as manager and assistant and are at it or are you showing genuine ignorance?

I know what he didn't win; any matches against Celtic, a League Cup semi final against Motherwell, and a qualifying round 1 Europa League stage against Progres. You can start the 'bring back Pedro' campaign if you want mate.

Cause hes won things i expect

Ah yes, indeed, the Mexican League Cup, I forgot about that. I'm not sure it trumps 2 Premier Leagues, 2 League Cups and an FA Cup Clarke won when assistant manager at Chelsea but it's academic in the end. Certainly up there with Tommy Wright and Derek McInnes mind. Indeed Jim McIntyre, with a Scottish Cup win for Ross County, is suddenly our new favourite, right?

I think it's just my own prejudice against British coaches. I watch a lot of European matches, and I'm constantly fascinated by what's on offer, tactically; Leipzig, Dortmund, Atalanta, Napoli, Lille (albeit poorly at the moment!), PSG, Celta Vigo etc., are all remarkable in there own way.

 

Even when you look at the English PL, you have Guardiola, who's different from Mourinho, who's different from Conte, who's different from Klopp, and so on. And, then I look at the British coaches, and they're basically, for me anyway, producing variations of the same tactic; it's dated, boring and will not achieve anything of note in European competition.

 

That British element has it's part to play in the British game, but it's not the whole story. Sir Alex had that British knack ingrained in his teams, but he also relied upon Portuguese and Dutch coaches to supplement what he had.

 

To bring it back to the OP, that British element will have it's benefits, but I'm unconvinced it will take us to the next level.

In terms of Kilmarnock since the turn of the century they've appointed Bobby Williamson, Jim Jeffries, Jimmy Calderwood as a temporary appointment, Mixu Paatelinen, who'd managed Hibs badly and Cowdenbeath prior, Kenny Sheils who was a Tranmere youth coach, Allan Johnson from QOTS, Gary Locke, Lee Clark and Lee McCulloch. I mean compared to that lot Steve Clarke's CV reads like Alex Ferguson.

I don't know who I want to manage Rangers. There's not an obvious person. I understand why McInnes name is mentioned a lot but I don't think his CV is much better than Tommy Wright's. In the end I want a pragmatist who can make a team greater than the sum of its parts. If we can do that we can challenge Celtic. They'll continue to have better individual players than us for a few more seasons, but they don't have to have a better team. I just don't know who that person is. I don't know enough about the Belgian people are speaking about. I do think a grasp of Scottish football, or at least British football and footballers is essential. This is where we play and these are the teams we play against, knowing how to beat them in the short term is what we need. Europe can take care of itself when that time comes again.

I just thought our perceptions interesting. When you look at their CV's, PC looks by far the better candidate -- too good for Killie --, but we're saying one is a dud and another has wonderful credentials? And when it came to us, a 'No.2 career' was irrelevant. I thought Killie getting Clarke was a coup, but now that I look, I'm not sure why? (I know Clarke wasn't touted as Rangers quality.)

Why do you think PC has a better CV than Clarke? A couple of Portuguese minnows, a big-ish Mexican club and then obscurity in the middle east against a guy who has coached or managed some big, big clubs and some smaller provincial clubs in England. The bottom side in the SPFL being able to appoint a guy who has coached the first teams of Chelsea, West Ham, Newcastle and Liverpool is fairly impressive, on paper at least. Kilmarnock have been appointing people with significantly weaker CVs than Clarke over the last 20 years.

I'm not sure how PC is too good for Kilmarnock myself, his CV is pretty ordinary by any standards.

It's academic, neither should be in the frame for the Rangers job in my opinion.

What's Steve Clarke actually achieved, though? Pedro's got much better credentials than Clarke.

He'd one good season as manager of West Brom and other than that very little of note as a manager. But as a number 2 and a coach he's highly regarded in football apparently, certainly the list of clubs he's coached at is pretty impressive. He must have learned something during his time as Mourinho's assistant. It's about expectation, I'd have been very disappointed if we'd appointed Stevie Clarke, but he's a decent appointment for a club like Kilmarnock. I'd say the same about PC, his CV would have made him an interesting appointment for Killie, doesn't make him Rangers material though.

Half full when a manager who just a couple weeks back told us we should learn our standing in Scottish football and who says a 3-0 nil defeat to celtic is the best he could hope for is about to darken our door. All to appease players who refuse to evolve past failure.

 

Kenny miller wasn't sent away from the club for leaking information that was Wallace who was told to not come back.

 

Miller was removed from the team because of the court cases hanging over his head and for several outbursts off the park . Canixiha believed he has anger issues and told him to sort himself out. He has fought with several of the foreign players including morelos.

 

Not my fault or concern if you believe the rubbish in the sun and record instead. Times and heard both had pieces on the goings on that where far closer to the truth.

 

Afyer mccinnes has dropped all the uneeded tactical classes and the training meetings He can then as he stated start teaching the fans how stupid we are and that second with our budget is all we should ever hope for. You dont honestly think that mccinnes is going to change his opinion he so readily gave just a wee while back do you? Have you asked you self how a guy who says that his smaller budgets means the best he can do is get beat by celtic is going to beat celtic with a far lower budget? Do you understand he's going to tell the players they can't think of winning? He has been very clear about that so far. Very clear.

 

It will be good mccinnes and his backroom staff can team up with the guys who have came in lately and started removing traditions at the club and setting about changing that daft thinking of ours . You probably don't know anything about that either tbf. Rangers people are losing their roles at the club all for guys who don't believe in the Rangers way of thinking and mccinnes is just another in that procession.

 

Kenny miller is a poison at the club along with a couple of his buddies who think evolving the way we play is less important than having an easier time of it.

 

But they have won so now it's either get behind them or fight time. I choose to fight players who are harming the club not embrace them and make them captain .

 

It's a very dark time at the club. Sorry I don't share your hope for the future as we embark on this downward trajectory.

Is their any evidence for anything you're claiming or is it just your take on recent events?

I fear you'd so much invested in Pedro emotionally you're allowing his demise to cloud your view. First and foremost Pedro had to go. He wasn't progressive, he wasn't evolving us and he wasn't moving us forward. He was an expensive mistake, a gamble that didn't play out. He might have been multi-lingual and on-message when it comes to talking about transitions but he couldn't motivate or organise footballers and that's the job. He's gone and I'm delighted. He seemed to be a nice guy, a decent sort and I wish him well but he was never capable of managing a club like Rangers and that was clear very early on in his tenure.

Whether you or I like it or not managing experienced, set in their ways old pros is part of the job. Getting them on your side, buying into your ideas and fighting for your team is the what management is all about. Footballers are often selfish, it's a short career, filled with risks, and they tend to look out for themselves first. For me Caixhina's biggest failing was his man-management. He fell out with half the squad, he'd players banished to the youths, sent out on loan and then slated in the media. That's terrible man-management. If nothing else those players are friends and team-mates with the rest of the squad. Treat them respectfully, treat them with dignity, by all means move them on but do it professionally, don't throw them under a bus in public. That goes with managing any group of people, not just footballers.

I don't know if McInnes will be our next manager or not. Like most of us he's not exactly an exciting name and his record is pretty average. But he knows the club and the expectations of the support, he knows British footballers, how the think and react and how to motivate them, he knows the league and the different clubs, styles and weaknesses and he's been pretty good and improving players he's managed. He can't be stupid enough to think that finishing second is even a medium term strategy for Rangers, and what he says as Aberdeen manager is very different to what would accepted at Rangers.

Maybe he doesn't, maybe he'll be another disaster. That doesn't mean removing PC was a mistake, it wasn't, it was essential.

I’ll write the next one if you want?

Hearts were poor, particularly in the 2nd half but that shouldn’t detract from a good performance and an excellent result.

We had a bit of fight about us today, there was an urgency and determination that’s been missing for months. At the same time we played good football. I thought wee Holt was our man of the match but I was also delighted with the defence. Playing together for the first time they were composed and strong conceding only a wonder goal. McRorie did well but Wilson was excellent alongside him, plus Tav and John defended and attacked with purpose.

Injuries and suspensions meant we had a largely British side today, for what it’s worth. I’m not sure if that had any bearing on things and I’d expect Alves and Cardowan to start if available. But there was a togetherness today that’s been missing.

Lastly Miller answered his critics in the best way. Whatever his faults he’s an influential and effective member of the team.

Who ever we get will be ridiculed by the press and rangers fans will fall for it in droves.

Rangers managers have one job to do and that’s to win football matches. If they do that there will be little dissenting heard from the media or indeed the stands.

Some posters were sceptical of Caixinha from day 1, some, like me, became sceptical after watching a few matches he was in charge of, for some it took until relatively recently and a small number still think PC should be in charge and given more time. The fact the media saw through PC early on isn’t because they’re part of a huge conspiracy against Rangers but because unlike us they are paid to spend time with players and managers and some of them are able to spot a fraud, a bluffer or someone who is just little out of his depth fairly quickly.

PC was a disaster, a terrible appointment, arguably our worst ever manager. That wasn’t the media’s fault.

Morelos hasn’t scored since Miller was dropped. While Miller hasn’t been playing well this season his runs and energy have still created space for others.

I think the next Rangers manager will undoubtedly have a Rangers background of some sort.

 

In our history we've only had three managers who had a non-Rangers background: Advocaat, PLG & Pedro. Of those only Advocaat was successful & that was mostly due to the money he got to spend on players.

 

I'd suggest McInnes would be the board's first choice but may be difficult to get because he signed a new contract with the sheep in the summer.

It's an interesting point you make. Wilton was steeped in the club performing many roles before becoming Manager, Struth was Assistant Manager first as was Davie White, Walter Smith and Ally McCoist before taking the manager's chair. Scott Symon and John Grieg were both ex-players, as was Stuart McCall.

So in terms of managers who had no connection to the club before taking the job we had Caixinho obviously, plus Warburton, Advovaat and PLG but also Souness and Alex McLeish. Whilst the latter two were boyhood fans (was Souness? I'm never completely sure) they'd never played or coached with us before.

There are clearly advantages in knowing the club, how it operates and the expectations that go with that, but that in itself is no guarantee of success.

So he comes with an extra revenue stream...?

Yeah, but it only goes out the way.

Good stuff Rousseau, thanks.

also assume Miller will come back into the side and play a blinder, that's how these things always work.