JohnMc

I think Barasic, and most Croatian players, would choose Italy over Scotland. Culturally Italy and Croatia are fairly close, it will feel a lot more like 'home' to him. I suspect the type of football played there would appeal to him too. That said, if we keep him until the summer and if we won the league the chance of Champion's League football might persuade a few to stay, Barasic included. I'd certainly be disappointed if we sold him in this window. 

Go on then, I've not done one for a while. I'll take the Aberdeen match if no one else wants it. 

Elfideldo tells of seeing Michael Stewart (yes, that Michael Stewart) as a youngster and just how good he was at that age.

Stewart had everyone wanting to sign him, eventually choosing Man Utd, arguably the best club side in the world at the time and one with a wonderful record of developing young players. We all know how that story ended. Now, Stewart had a decent career, playing over 100 games for Hearts and Hibs, but he achieved nothing like what was expected of him when he was 16. 

It's instructive to look at who are arguably the 'best' Scottish players currently, at least in terms of the level they're playing at every week. John McGinn and Ryan Fraser didn't make any Scotland side until under 19s, and Andrew Robertson never played for any Scotland side before under 21s and was famously released by Celtic and ignored by us while playing in the same league as us. 

I guess the point I'm labouring to make is the correlation between being the 'cream' at 15 or 16 and actually becoming a top class professional is tenuous at best.  

2 hours ago, buster. said:

My impression from afar is that we currently have a football operation (including youth development) that has a level of professionalism higher than Rangers have ever had previously. That's currently a big positive and begs questions of the past wrt making the most of what we had. Touch wood, but for an example of a major positive, I look at our injury list over the time SG&Co have been at the club, it's not about luck.

 

Given the pressure to win or win at Rangers, the fabled pathway is a very difficult engineering project, even if the youth development structure is sound.

As I previously mentioned, If you lose the projected cream then it gets more difficult. If today's system and financial hierarchy was in place when Barry Ferguson  got to his 16th birthday, would he have ever played for us ?

 

Youth Development at Ibrox has been a good news story for a while (the Sinclair departure seems to have been a positive)...but will it produce players for us or are we caught up in a place where the cream go to more resourced clubs and the rest end-up at smaller clubs, where occasionally we end up buying them back ?

 

The only way I see a major change is if we were semi-forced down the road of playing more youngsters because of financial reasons.

 

 

 

It's funny you mention the injuries, I've stopped myself mentioning this on a few occasions in case I jinx us! If that does happen it's on you!! ?

As regards your 'cream' point I'm far from convinced being an outstanding 16 year old is any indicator of how your career will go. Glance at Scottish international youth sides of the last 30 years and you'll see hundreds of names you don't recognise. In 2014 Scotland under 17s reached the semi-finals of the European Championships, have a look at the squad, how many of those boys, the cream at the time, do you expect to go on and have good to exceptional careers? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Scotland 

12 hours ago, craig said:

Barrie McKay can't really be considered a Rangers youth product though as he came to us from Killie at 17

That's still a youth Craig. Most 17 year olds are still playing age-group appropriate football, McKay did when he joined us. I'm not being a pedant, but the challenge we've regularly failed at is taking a talented 17, 18, 19 year old and turning them into a first team player. McKay managed that and has gone on to have a reasonable career at a decent level. 

3 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

John Fleck is doing quite well with Sheffield United. 

I forgot about Fleck. He's a perfect example of a kid tipped for big, big things, one with obvious talent when he was young, but who simply didn't develop it with us. He couldn't get into Ally's first side and was out on loan at Blackpool and struggling to get a game for them. It was Coventry who figured out his best position and gave him regular game time. He doesn't look out of place in the English top flight now, good on him. 

Lewis McLeod and Barrie McKay are both established English Championship players, albeit neither looks like making the next step up the leagues now. Both broke into the side when we were in the lower leagues but getting into this current Rangers side will be a lot more difficult for any young player.

It's a little concerning how poorly most of our young players have done out on loan, the two at Ayr and Robbie McCrorie at QOTS seem to be doing okay but it's not a great level, you'd really want to see them doing it week in week out at a mid-level SPFL side before you'd even consider them ready for our first team squad. McPake has struggled at Dundee, Middleton couldn't get into a shit Hibs side, Zac Rudden, Jake Hastie and Ross McCrorie haven't set the heather alight in the lower leagues down south either. 

I suppose the club look at it as a calculated gamble. If they can produce one player that can be sold for a few million it pays for itself, likewise producing a few squad players allows transfer budgets to be spent on better players, no need to sign the Andy Kings and the Sheyi Ojos in the future. 

We'll see, much as I like to see us bring through our own I increasingly think professional football clubs shouldn't be allowed anywhere near youth development. 

16 hours ago, BlackSocksRedTops said:

Posted with tongue firmly in cheek tbh...

 

Joking aside...whit happened with Sinclair? Went from 20 goals a season player to nowhere man. He's only 29/30? Surprised a bigger team in the Championship didn't have a sniff. Or does he come with baggage?

He'll be 31 this year.

Lennon happened. Sinclair played over 30 matches last season but wanted to leave at the end of the season, Celtic invoked an extension to his contract trying to get a fee for him much to his annoyance. Apparently he has no relationship with Lennon and has wanted to move near Manchester for a while for family reasons. Or so the Tim downstairs told me! 

3 hours ago, buster. said:

Thank´s elfideldo !!

 

With Leon King looking likely to follow the Billy Gilmour route, the problem seems to be the ability level that stands out, does so to other more resourced clubs in more attractive leagues...and therefore we don´t get the cream of our own crop to tread a pathway into the first team.

 We signed a boy from Motherwell very recently, much to Motherwell's annoyance I understand, so these things even themselves out. The best way to keep the Gilmours and Kings of this world is for us to have players progress to the 1st team, showing clear examples of what can be achieved by staying at Rangers. Unfortunately we've not been able to do that for a few years now. 

It's still all about getting some of these lads to make the giant leap from youths to first team. It's great to see us sitting on top of the league and to read about success at this level, but ultimately the purpose has to be producing finished first team players or else it's all just an expensive vanity project. 

Saw the lad Leon King on the highlights from Germany, he's a big lad for 15! Is that why he's playing so far above his age group do you think Elfideldo? I recall seeing Billy Gilmour at a similar age and he looked like a wee boy compared to the other kids he was playing with, but his ability really made his stand out. 

Anyway, can I echo Stewarty, many thanks Elfideldo. 

Presenting Partner just means they're sponsoring the Rangers TV/ social media/website stuff being produced while we're on the winter break. 

In terms of what they do they seem to be a private contractor who'll support military operations (and non-military I'm sure) in potentially hostile parts of the world. Offices in Yemen, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan do jump out a bit. I suspect the US military 'outsource' logistics, catering and so on when they're trying to keep a lower profile in some theatres, or Congress have only given them permission to send a handful of 'advisors'. 

As for what they're doing with us I'm going to guess that their CEO, Andrew Robertson, is a bluenose, he's certainly Scottish and ex-military too I suspect. 

A guy I sort of know was a guest on Off The Ball at the weekend, I suspect @DMAA will know him too. I didn't hear the show so I've no idea how it went. But he's a bluenose too so the staunch quota must have been particularly high in Pacific Quay for a change. 

I've always found Pat Nevin to be pretty fair, he's publicly stated he stopped his children going to Parkhead because of the sectarianism around them. There's not many will say that openly. 

3 hours ago, Bluedell said:

Yet again Gerrard puts the blame solely on Morelos and refuses to acknowledge that he's refereed in a different manner to other people in Scotland.

 

Gerrard makes it easy for refs to continue to single out Alfie, either by booking him when others wouldn't be, or by being fouled in the box with no penalty given.

 

Gerrard should be giving Morelos more protection. 

Gerrard doesn't come across as naive or stupid, so I assume there's a reason for him taking this stance that's not obvious to us. Like you I'm really surprised he's not using this particular issue, and many previous ones, to put pressure on refs and the media with regards Morelos. I don't know what the strategy is but I'm hoping there is one and it's working in ways we can't see. 

This is what the internet was made for, love it.  

There are at least 2 players on that list I've literally never heard of and if Willo Flood appears anywhere near your 'best players of the decade' list you've got some systemic issues! We spent part of this decade playing behind hedges and against ex-Highland League sides and our list would still be better than this. 

Great stuff Elfideldo, many thanks. 

1 hour ago, buster. said:

I think it´s evident that we are still some way short of where we need to be but as I said, it´s about incremental steps and that has to be the way given the finances (see respective wagebills).

 

SG&Co have done very well to keep progressing to where we are today.

The board have done very well to support the football operation to the extent they have, both in raw dosh and in putting in place an infrastructure that we´ll hopefully see the benefit of further down the line.

The first team squad have done very well this season to produce a consistency of result that means we are there to challenge for the spoils.

Not forgetting the support who have been fantastic, filling Ibrox game after game.

 

 

We are still some way short but It´s going in the right direction , it´s going to need more patience because upseting the applecart isn´t an option.....The defeat on Sunday was hard to take but it´s gone.

 

The YB game provides an opportunity to bounce right back and achieve a tangible measure of progress as well as several million sterling.

Let's see what the rest of the month brings, hopefully this is a blip on an otherwise upward trajectory. 

14 hours ago, Rousseau said:

If the performance/result was reversed and we'd won after being battered for 90 minutes, would we be closer/ahead?

I'm not sure hypotheticals help much but had the result been reversed I'd have been much happier, aside from the obvious elation at winning cup the display of resilience and winning when playing poorly plus the psychological impact it would have had on both sides would have led me to believe we're closer to a league winning side  than I feel we are now. 

22 minutes ago, Waltersgotstyle said:

I think that is doing this Rangers team a huge disservice mate. Rangers did not allow them to play for the full 90 minutes. You have to bear in mind that this is the same Celtic team that have been lauded all season.

Celtic are having a good season and have had some exceptional results in Europe, but yesterday they were poor. We should have pummelled their 18 year old full back for a start, it was only his 4th match ever, instead we let him look like he's Carlos Alberto at times. I accept we played well for most of the match, but I genuinely feel that Celtic's strange starting line-up and shape allowed us to build from the back and meant they kept giving away possession. We should have beaten them yesterday, they were there for the taking. 

4 minutes ago, Bill said:

Surely that was never in question whatever the result yesterday. Did anyone really believe beating Celtic would have confirmed the rebuilding job was over? There's a long way to go yet and if there's been any surprise this season it's been how well we've performed. I'd put us ahead of schedule but I suppose everyone has their own opinion of how much rebuilding had to be done. The club has certainly had its recent failures but they haven't been since Gerrard arrived.

I certainly viewed yesterday's match as a benchmarking of sorts, an opportunity to see where we were compared to our biggest rivals and ultimately the side we need to finish in front of. I'd hoped we were closer than I now feel we are. I very much saw this season as one where our goal was the winning the league, unlike last season where I felt that was unrealistic. Celtic have a 'new' manager, and even though he knows the club and had a few months of last season to assess the squad I still felt that gave us some advantage. I accept they've a better squad and more money to attract players, but while I think Lennon is a better manager than some give him credit for I don't think he's of the same calibre as Rodgers. Having played them twice now, once at Ibrox and once at Hampden it concerns me we've not been able to score a goal yet. That was a Celtic side who got their tactics all wrong yesterday, who had nothing upfront almost all match and a rookie 18 year old at full back. I expected us to be able to beat Celtic in a one off match such as yesterday by this stage in our rebuilding. Psychologically that was a huge result for Celtic yesterday and a damaging one for us.  

I'm not really having a go at Gerrard, or any specific player. I just thought we were further along the road than we seem to be. Plus we just lost a cup final to Celtic so I'm in a fucker of a mood. 

7 hours ago, Rousseau said:

I think you make some good points. 

 

You may have a point about Tavernier, but I'm not willing to throw him under a bus quite yet; he's a good player, and has been a good servant.

 

I think you are mistaken about Aribo, though: he was never an Aluko-type player, which I mentioned at the time we signed him because people were thinking similarly, he's actually a box-to-box player, a destroyer-type that plays deeper, like Kamara. He's a good talent, with a big future, but he's not settled yet.

 

(Kent didn't do much, but I did say yesterday, there were 4-5 players around him every time he had the ball; that's not a bad thing.)

 

I think the obvious position to improve is Arfield's. If we can get that player you thought Aribo was into there, then we'd be vastly improved. 

You might be right about Aribo, I knew nothing about him before we signed him and made my assumption on the first couple of games I saw him play for us. I also agree that I don't think he's settled, some players take a few months to be fair. Had Davis been fit I wonder if Arfield or Aribo would have started, or if Kamara would have been on the bench.

We'll learn a lot about this squad in the next few weeks. 

7 hours ago, buster. said:

Forget yesterday for a moment, positives are more evident in our situation as a whole.

 

We are taking incremental steps towards where we want to be and importantly have the right people in charge of the first team.

Generally, mentality  was good yesterday,  it was more an issue of definition and quality.

The main stumbling block remains finance.

 

 

I think we're a better squad than this time last year and light years from the year before that, so I agree about the situation as a whole. But we couldn't beat a poor Celtic side yesterday. That tells me we're still some way short of where we need to be.

I'm afraid I'm also questioning the mentality of this side. I was also reminded of Tommy Burns Celtic against Walter Smith's Rangers, they'd play us off the park for long periods but we'd still win. That's a concern for me. 

Dropping points to Aberdeen during the week was a disgrace. There was a lack of leadership and a lack of sheer will to win. When Aberdeen got a lucky goal they grew in belief and we visibly drew in. That's a worrying trait. 

It was different yesterday, we were unable to get a goal despite numerous chances, almost all falling to the player we'd want them falling too. But let's be honest here, that was a makeshift Celtic side upfront. Their only forward was a winger who looked half decent when in the Championship but well out of his depth in the SPFL. This severely hampered them, make no mistake, and allowed us to control the match. We were unable to make this count and my concern is they won't be that poor again when we next play them. Yesterday was our chance to land a blow and we didn't take it. 

I'm not suggesting wholesale changes, but we do need to make changes. There's a lack of leaders on the pitch for a start. I like Tav but has he got the sheer drive to be a Rangers captain? Be honest, will he do what Scott Brown does to help change a match? Are our centre-halves commanding? Do they scare the opposition, do they control our box at set-pieces, do they hurt the forwards they're up against? Lastly where are the moments of magic from Kent and particularly Aribo? Aribo clearly has a wonderful touch and a great close control, but we need to see that create something during a match. When I first saw him I thought we'd bought a player similar to Sone Aluko. Not in stature obviously but it terms of what he'd bring to the side. The ability to beat a man, to create space for others, to hold the ball and draw a foul, and more importantly to provide that wee piece of quality that wins us tight matches. I'm not seeing that, he's fine at playing one-twos with Kamara but he's not hurting the opposition and that's what we need. 

I accept we need to be careful of knee-jerk reactions fuelled by bitter disappointment, but football matches between evenly matched sides are won by small margins, and, in my opinion those are largely in mentality related. Personally I've not taken any positives from yesterday. 

23 minutes ago, Bluedell said:

Davis out ?

That's got to give 'them' a lift. Our players will have known for a few days but Celtic will have assumed Davis was starting, they know he's integral to how we play. Davis has played in cup finals, and won them, he knows what's needed, there's no disguising this is a blow. Time for someone else to stand up and make their mark.