JohnMc

1 hour ago, Devil's advocaat said:

Christie played 50 odd league games for ICT before he went to tenko, but yes, your point stands 

Yeah, forgot about that. 

1 hour ago, yuddie said:

I know Glasgow is a bit of a goldfish bowl in football terms but down south young players will have millions of eyes on them each week with 10x the scrutiny online too.

 

I've always held the opinion that it's because we're so dominant relative to the league - with 3x the revenue of 3rd place (Hearts) that we can and should blood youngsters.

 

If you can't develop your own when you're spending in a summer what the rest of the clubs generate in turnover then I'm sorry, you just aren't a serious football club.

 

@Rousseau alluded to it earlier, the SFA and SPFL aren't serious organisations either or there would be B teams in the lower leagues - but that's by the bye.

 

And I have to say, we just aren't that good a team in recent years to turn our noses up at the academy. We don't need to flood the team with youngsters but if we can have 2 or 3 that can get 1000-2000 minutes a season (over 60 games!) then that's the ideal. It really isn't that radical, it's only Scotland that's not following the trend of trusting younger players in recent years.

 

There does seem to be that psyche that runs through Scotland and it's fanbases.

It's not the number of people watching that's the issue, it's the consequences. Liverpool aren't firing their manager is they finished second. Indeed no side in England is doing that, most are delighted if the finish fourth. Second for Rangers is being fired. If we're still second and trailing by say 6 points come the end of October there will be voices on here calling for Clement to go. That's not right but it is reality. 

I've pointed this out before. While we were visiting the fishing villages and market towns of the Scottish lower leagues Celtic had no challenge for the league. During that period they developed Callum MacGregor, James Forrest, Keiran Tierney, Ryan Christie and Charlie Mulgrew. They could do that because they could afford the mistakes young players make without worrying it would make a difference. 
Since we returned to the top flight they've developed no one of consequence. 

For the record, I'm not promoting ditching our youth set up, but there is an argument these days. 

2 hours ago, Uilleam said:

And spend significant coin on players whose ability to withstand the 'unique' pressures, and environment, of Rangers, and to carry that heavy shirt, is untested, and thus, unknown?

 

I have been told, many times, that all transfers are a risk. Therefore, the more players you buy, the greater the risk. 

 

It strikes me that with a youth set up, you will, inevitably, have a high 'churn rate'; this would also be the case with purchased players, who do not come up to expectations. 

 

If you have a player from say age 15/16 to, say 19/ 20, you will have a pretty clear idea of his talent, and of his personality (considered broadly), both of which you will have helped to develop. When you buy a player, at, say, 20, you will have, from observation, an idea of his talent, but less of his personality. 

 

The nub of the matter, perhaps, is that one player has the talent, and the personality, but not the experience, while the other has, as far as you can discern, the talent, and the experience, but with his personality, largely, unknown. 

What is needed is for the home schooled players to gain the necessary experience. This seems to be difficult, internally, and externally, and I am not sure how you solve the problem. 

However, despite this, it would seem logical not to commit all  resources to one policy and practice. 

 

 

 

I'm not actually making the argument, merely pointing out that there is one. I'd prefer a youth policy that produced players we can use, currently it doesn't and part of the reason for that is demands on the club. 

9 hours ago, yuddie said:

Aye I get that.

 

What we've done previously clearly hasn't worked, so what else can we do?

 

If we were a well run club we'd have an identity from u8's through to the seniors and blooding youngsters would make more sense than spending 3m on a 20 year old Morrocan or German.

 

This isn't wishful thinking, it's happening at the top level with Liverpool, City, Utd etc.

 

Don't flood the first team with them, but why a Robbie Fraser or Cole McKinnon couldn't come in for a home game against St Johnstone or County is bemusing. It just reeks of fear and short term ism.

 

Fans would rather bin the academy than try and proactively use it - madness.

We're the living embodiment of short-termism. Rangers manager's job will come under pressure if we go three matches without a win, he'll lose it if we go five. Rangers directors will come under pressure if we don't win the league or have to fire a manager during the season. A Rangers player will come under pressure if they have a couple of poor games in a row. This is no exaggeration. Putting young players into that environment is problematic. Young players will make mistakes and as mistakes cost managers their jobs, cost their team mates win bonuses and pile pressure on directors no one is too interested in making that happen. 

There's a big argument that Rangers should close their 'academy', save the money and simply sign players that are ready for the first team. Let young players develop at clubs without the pressure and demands of Rangers. 

1 hour ago, ian1964 said:

 

Transfer fee still to be mentioned? Hopefully they won't demand too much from us to take him. 

3 hours ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Budinauckas(22) was on loan at Stranraer last season, played lots of games. Jay Hogarth(20) is a good prospect and played the second half of the season at Dumbarton then Mason Munn (18) is also highly rated, turned down Arsenal last year (I believe).

 

Decent pipeline of keepers in the Academy.

Jacob Pazikas (19) is going to Stranraer on loan in the coming season. Stranraer's form suggests he'll get plenty of practice. Despite Jacob's exotic name he's a bluenose from Linwood, I worked with his Dad many lifetimes ago. 

Far be it for me to stick up for The Sun but Birmingham City were taken over last year by by an American group who seem to have more money than sense. Their drop to League 1 is unlikely to prevent them from buying players from Aberdeen. 

Aberdeen on the other hand have been operating at a significant loss for a few years, this has been offset by player sales, but even then they've still lost over £3 million over the last 3 seasons. The season just finished, despite Conference League group football, is unlikely to have improved much as they, once again, went through 3 managers and finished 11th in the league. Wanting £7 million is fine but I suspect they'd accept half that. 

22 hours ago, compo said:

but not on it often enough 

There aren't that many performers who can sell out a stadium gig, Compo. This summer only Pink, Green Day and Taylor Swift are performing stadium tours with Scottish dates. Springsteen didn't come to Scotland this year and AC/DC are only playing Wembley. That's your stadium artists for 2024. There are only around dozen, maybe 20 performers who can tour with stadium sized venues on their schedule. Scotland's not a big market and there are 3 stadiums, including Ibrox, vying for them. The other two have the advantage of not hosting sport every other weekend, so can offer more flexibility around dates. 

You can criticise the Ibrox management about a number things, but I'm not sure this is one of them. 

20 hours ago, compo said:

Been reading this mornings paper and it's big story is this Taylor Swift concert  no doubt Murrayfield will be getting well paid for this so why aren't our financial wizzos not into this little earner we've done it before looks to me like easy money  

There's a lot of work being done on the Copland stand this summer so Ibrox isn't available for concerts or events. We're not even playing any friendlies at home pre-season. 

Harry Styles, a troubadour popular with the young people, played at Ibrox in the very recent past which suggests our 'wizzos' are onto this little earner. 

1 hour ago, Rousseau said:

Those two numbers don't really tell you much. 

 

I believe they are in a really bad state financially? 

Schalke were certainly, although I thought they'd stopped haemorrhaging money in the last couple of years. Despite another poor season I assumed they'd still have the finances for a 20 year old Bayern B team player, who they know well, if they wanted him. They might simply be too strapped to purchase him, or have other parts of their squad requiring more attention, I don't know. 

It's always worth remembering that I have no inside knowledge, I've never seen this lad play, indeed had never heard of him until reading this thread. Take my concerns with a large pinch of salt. We've had some great players who signed from relative obscurity and other well established players who signed and yet failed to deliver. Basically I know nothing, I'm just killing time between meetings!

1 hour ago, Rousseau said:

Which numbers specifically caught your eye?

Specifically 4 goals, no assists and 'too expensive for the 3rd biggest club in Germany'. 

Didn't Schalke have another shocking season, fighting relegation into the 3rd tier for much of the year? If he's as good as Tillman I'll be very happy, but his numbers aren't wonderful despite playing for a big club at a low level. 

1 hour ago, Uilleam said:

 

Actually it is. 

 

And, actually, I find it almost, well, depressing that we have to hear about, consider, and debate, boardroom appointments, at all. 

 

What I will say is that if one wished to start and run a "professional sports business", then one might well consider recruiting people who know how to do such things, and have experience which demonstrates such knowledge. It doesn't seem to me that expertise in one field, must of necessity transfer to another. 

The problem at Ibrox might be that we have, and have had, a set of successful business people, who are, perhaps, struggling a little, because football is an industry in which they have little experience, and which does not easily bend into comfortable shape. 

Consider the erstwhile SNP panjandrum, and big name big businessman, McColl, who took over Fergusson's shipyard in Port Glasgow, and how quickly that whole shebang turned belly up. 

 

I don't know, Uilleam, I think the names of Waddell, Holmes and Murray are hard to forget and are closely associated with the managers they appointed, or removed. However, I'll concede it seems unlikely we'll be speaking about Bisgrove's time at Rangers 30 years from now. I agree that for most of us who is in the boardroom or executive level is of far less interest than who is starting at left back or picking the team. However, particularly with our recent history, debating and keeping a watchful eye on who is making decisions in Edmiston Drive is beholden on all of us. 

I would agree entirely that having success in one field is no guarantee that success will inevitably follow in a different one. Football in particular is strewn with the carcasses of men (almost always men) who were successful in business and then failed spectacularly in the business of football. I read yesterday's press release from Everton about the probable collapse of the sale of the club, I'm reminded that Moshri had a stellar senior management record and Bill Kenwright was an impresario of rare success. Yet both presided over a long period of decline despite a huge latent support and access to Sky's millions for decades. 

It's not about age, it's about fitness. I accept the two become more closely linked as a player ages, but simply being 32 shouldn't be some kind of cut off point. Steve Davis played 35 times in a title winning side at 34. If Barasic, Roofe, Lundstrom and Jack are away, plus this talk of Goldson and Tav leaving too, then we will be very short of experience, and a club the size of Rangers does need experienced players too. He's played 35 plus matches each of the last 3 seasons, that suggests his fitness isn't currently an issue. 

McLean isn't the kind of signing that gets the support excited, but he knows the league, he's played at a decent standard, he's Scottish which helps for European squads, and he's a decent player. I imagine his salary expectations are within our budget too. 

39 minutes ago, Gonzo79 said:

Aye but Declan and Aiden from Coatbridge are Irish, despite their parents and themselves all being born in Scotland.

 

Confused.com  

My poorly made point was more about their ability to 'fit in' rather than what nationality they see themselves having. Bassey and Aribo were raised in the UK, so moving to Glasgow isn't as big a culture shock as if they'd been raised in Lagos. Likewise moving to Glasgow if you were raised in Belgium or Germany isn't as challenging as if you were from Malawi I'd guess.

All that said I read an article recently about Jadon Sancho and his failure to blossom at Man Utd. The point the author was making was that because he was from south London he wasn't given the support and help he would have been given had he been from another country. He seemed to be suggesting south London is different enough from Manchester to warrant this. Man Utd expected a young English guy to settle fairly easily. Dortmund on the other hand had put every possible thing in place to help a young player settle in a new country and environment and so Sancho did really well there. This theory conveniently overlooked the fact Sancho had lived in Manchester previously when he was at Man City. 

Roy Keane speaks surprisingly well on this. As a player he was dismissive of some of Man Utd's signings 'struggling to settle' and this affecting their performance. He gave some of them a really hard time about it too. He'd moved to England as a young man and had settled easily enough. He recalled losing it with Sebastian Veron, who blamed his form on living in a hotel and his wife and family not settling in England. 

Then when Keane joined Celtic his family stayed in Manchester and he moved into a hotel somewhere in Glasgow. He's go back to Manchester for a couple of days after games and then return to Glasgow for the rest of the week. He admitted he was miserable. He hated living in a hotel, he missed his family and friends and that it did affect his form. 

Jim Bett's wife couldn't settle in Glasgow so he left Rangers, but she was able to settle in Aberdeen without a problem. Go figure that out. 

Anyway, in my experience Declan and Aiden from Coatbridge would find Govan just too big a jump, some cultural gaps are just too huge to bridge. 

10 hours ago, yuddie said:

Btw if there is a nation/ethnicity that has always done well in British football it's african players.

 

Sima this year, Aribo and Bassey going back.

 

Even Balogun has for the most part been good for us.

 

It's a market with a proven track record in the UK and we should be targeting it.

 

I wouldn't mind a pre season tour in Cape Town! My old man took me a few times when I was a kid. Beautiful place.

African isn't an ethnicity, it's a continent with hundreds of different ethnicities. Egyptians are Africans, Somalis are Africans and Namibians are Africans and they have almost nothing in common with each other. 

Your point is interesting. Aribo and Bassey are Londoners, both were raised there, Aribo was born there and Bassey moved there as a young child. They are Nigerian by heritage, but are basically English. Balogun is German. Again, Nigerian by heritage, but born and raised in Berlin. Dessers is Belgian, again Nigerian by heritage, but European in every other sense. 

Sakala was raised in Africa, Diomande was too. They'd be better gauges of how 'African' players can settle and adapt to life and football in Scotland. Culturally a number of African countries are anglophile and you'd imagine that gives the players a better chance of adapting. If they can speak English for a start, if they're from a Christian background, but that isn't definite. Sakala spoke English, came from Malawi which has a strong British influence, he seemed to settle quite well. Diomande, I assume, is Muslim, and was born in the Ivory coast, where French is the main language. However he spent a lot of time in Ghana, where English is widely spoken. 

I guess it will come down to the individuals more than anything else. How mentally strong they are, what kind of family structure they have around them, how well they play too. 

We played 56 games, not including friendlies, last season. We played 65 matches the season before. This season we'll play 59 competitive matches. 

Last season Copenhagen won the Danish league, the Danish cup and played in qualifiers and group stages of the Champion's League, yet only played 47 competitive games. Club Brugge played 51, PSV played 52. 

We can argue about playing too much football, but if we reach the latter stages of both domestic cups and qualify for European 'league' football, which we should do every season now, then that's not going to change. 

So what's vital is not only that we are able to keep our players fit, so perhaps don't sign ones with clear track records of fitness problems, but also that we need real depth in our squad. I've no doubt we've asked players to play this season who weren't fully fit. Would it come as a surprise to anyone of we found out that Tav, Goldson and Lundstram had all played when carrying injuries? 

For us to be successful next season we need a squad that can rotate and rest players without weakening the team. We don't have that currently. 

2 hours ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

Worrying how little some of these

guys have played. Didn’t think Sima had missed so much time either.

 

 

To be fair Balagun was signed as cover, he's done his job. I'd argue Sterling was also signed as cover and has played more than might have been expected. Butland and Dessers have both contributed and whatever misgivings I have about big Cyriel he's turned up, stayed fit and never hid, so fair play to him. Sima left at the end of December for AFCON and has been injured since, barring a short cameo. So his % isn't a surprise.

I think Danilo joined us injured, eventually played, looked ok, then got injured, came back and got injured again. His % is no surprise either. Time will tell if he's a good signing or not. 
Lammers didn't work out, leaving in January was best all round, club did well to move him on quickly. He's done ok in Holland it seems, so hopefully someone wants to buy him. 

Really only Cifuentes and Dowell have been poor signings. Cifuentes was a bewildering signing at the time. We'll be lucky to give him away. Dowell is a decent player on the 38 minutes a season he's fit. He's averaged 19 appearances a season in his career, why anyone thought signing him for a club who play upwards of 50 competitive matches a season was a good idea is anyone's guess. 

16 minutes ago, CammyF said:

Kevin Nisbet was at Ibrox on Tuesday evening. Certainly wasn't there as a fan...........

I'd have taken him when he was at Hibs. He's had injuries at Millwall, so he sounds like a perfect signing for us now.

Jack and Lowry played for the youths last week. I expect both are fit enough for the bench.

Compared to PSV and Ajax the Feyenoord youth set up isn't that successful. I mean it's still better than ours, but that's a low bar. 

I thought bringing in someone from Belgian football made some sense. They've been pretty successful producing players in recent years and with a population around twice that of Scotland's copying whatever they're doing seemed logical. 

I've no idea if Zeb Jacobs was the right guy to implement that. I've no idea if he'll be a huge loss to the club. Perhaps whatever he's done over the last couple of years will bear fruit in the near future. Maybe his successor will get the credit, or blame, for that. 

Rangers and Scottish football in general aren't going to start producing seriously good players until the entire league is changed and it won't matter who we bring in to replace him. It is no coincidence that Celtic brought through a batch of decent young players when we were out of the top league. Since we've returned they've developed nothing like that number. Young players aren't getting a game when a couple of draws are a crisis and three defeats will see a manager sacked.