D'Artagnan

From Twitter Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug 19m BBC Scotland has learned the #Rangers chairman Walter Smith is on the brink of quitting after a weekend of bitter infighting at the club.

It shows that there was a considerable Unionist influence at the club prior to H & W's arrival in Govan, and within the club itself, rather than the support, were individuals defining our club's identity and putting strategies in place to ensure it developed. I believe this tends to usurp you earlier assertion...

Ok once more I will ask you....Im sure you will prevaricate for the umpteenth time So perhaps you can tell me why the Rangers Chairman Sir John Ure Primrose shared a political platform with Lord Carson in Glasgow prior to H & W coming over here ?

I think most people will read the foregoing and draw their own conclusions. Mine are that you have made a comment without any substance of foundation and you can neither qualify it or provide any sort of historical source to substantiate it. Several times I have highlighted the relative part - however rather answer you have prevaricated continually.

It seems Frankie "Rangers First" is a standard those within the club expect the support to aspire to, but are unable to put it into practice themselves.

I cant accept their label Frankie as "Rangers men" - no Rangers man would have allowed the club or the support to suffer the way they have if they had the financial clout to determine otherwise.

Stuart McCall

Another deflection. You cant substantiate what you have written- no surprise there. Do you know what - your comments without any grounds for substance - have all the hallmarks of hatred and intolerance.

No. But the managers post match excuses most certainly were.

You can waffle, you can deflect all you like. Im sure somewhere along the line an English lesson will come in. Just qualify the assertions you have made and quote your references in arriving at such a conclusion.

I fear Tom that irrespective of options - for guys like you and I - its totally outwith our control.

Im sorry I just cant abide the thought of someone who had the financial clout to save us all from the considerable pain we have gone through, but didnt - taking control now.

And three times now I have told you - the whole statement with the omission of the first sentence.

Correct re PSV Anchorman. Sadly i suspect you will correct about the rest.

Its quite simple despite your attempts to deflect. The only one who appears to be going round in circles is yourself. As an Ulster Scot I find your comment quite offensive, particularly your comments about "sub-culture". That kind of comment is straight out of Phill 3 names vocabulary. Furthermore as someone with a keen interest in our clubs history and development I note your statement is at particular odds with the historical commentators who have written about that period - Prof Graham Walker in various discourses as well as books and Bill Murray in his book The Old Firm and Sectarianism. I presume you were not alive at the time, therefore the conclusion you have made regarding this period in our club's history must have been drawn from somewhere - hence my request for sources.

Im asking you to qualify the statement you have made and provide the sources which cause you to arrive at such a conclusion - and just to be as precise as possible lets omit the first sentence of your statement. So Im asking you to both qualify and provide sources for the following statement you have made :-

PS and your sources would be particularly welcome.

All of the above.

Id be interested to know where you draw the information from that leads you to draw such a definitive conclusion. Most of the historical commentators - Prof Graham Walker and Bill Murray arrive at different conclusions from the one you have alluded to above,

My thoughts exactly Chelios

I dont think there is much point continuing with this - we are not going to agree. If in a multi page thread, which was originally about about Rangers identity - which is full of posts examining the worth of the various political arguements - you still need an example then I doubt very much any example will suffice.

I dont want to continue this but that in itself is absolute nonsense RPB. Andy himself has already commented on this, that his interpretation of what I was actually saying was different to his understanding - and perhaps thats down to the way I had written the original article - that erroneous insertion between the 2 quotations has created a different meaning from the original. And its bound to, if the inserted part is in itself based on an incorrect assumption. Disappointingly, I have noticed in the original thread that contributors personal political beliefs have overtaken any discussion with regard to the club itself or its identity, and I note RPB you appear to be as guilty as anyone of this,

The sporting heroes point is a good one AMMS - thats pretty darn confusing all told - thought perhaps little different from the footballers who chose the country of representation based upon a fathers or grandfathers place of birth. I dont think however the imperial hyms of which you speak are dont to wind up other supportes _ I think they are done out of a sense of identity - they tend to be popular British anthems - and I suspect they have evolved from their imperialistic meaning. Either that or a group of women with blue rinses are winding up the darkside at Last Night of the Poms !

Thats an interesting slant on things Andy and I would agree the Protestant people of the west of Scotland probably didn't really require a football club to define their identity or culture. But the point is that whether they needed one or not, they wanted one and Rangers became that chosen vessel. We could talk all day exercising hindsight as to what should/should not have happened - but it wont change things. But of course thats only part of the story. The real defining of that Protestant identity came from within Ibrox itself - with men like Sir John Ure Primrose stamping a definitive character to our club - though some would suggest such defining was motivated by commercial gain rather than anything else - something both OF clubs have been accused of exploiting with regard to their identities. Its important to note Prof Walker is not propelling Rangers as some kind of champion of the Protestant people - all he has attempted to do is explain why that Protestant identity became attached to our club. He also seeks to explore the rise of British expression within our support - and suggests this showed a considerable increase in the early 1920's.

Too much testosterone flying about - but Ive attempted to answer the points you raised.