aweebluesoandso

If the EPL money dries up that will only quicken the need for the big clubs of England and Europe to create a super league. We as a club need to be in the negotiations to set the ideas for it's financial running (on the German model) and to make sure of our inclusion.

Noble sentiments MF, unfortunately Europe's elite clubs are already making plans to grab a bigger slice of footballs global audience domination. Rangers can chose to ignore this next step in football evolution or it can join in it's natural selection, maybe in an second tier of any pan European league. If we decide to stay in our own midden then i think the consequences of this will be further quality downgrading of our playing squad, less crowds and less television audience share and as a direct result less financial revenue streams. Rangers are a big fish in a small pond, however i want my team to be a big team in a big pond. Not through putting us in massive debt like Man City, Liverpool, Man-U but by the Teutonic model of club financing. Article.. The system by which Bundesliga clubs are regulated, with an emphasis on strict financial rules and licensing, means Bayern are debt-free, allowing the club to offer some tickets for as little as 12 euros (�£11) in a world-class stadium. That is a world apart from the Premier League model of light-touch regulation that has allowed the United States-based Glazers to saddle United with debts of �£716.5m. It has become a debt too far for thousands of their fans, so much so that the Red Knights, a group of wealthy United followers in alliance with the Manchester United Supporters' Trust is attempting to wrest control of the club. Stuart Dykes is a Manchester United fan living in Germany. He also supports Schalke and pays 13 euros (�£12) to stand in the Veltins-Arena and watch his team. The cost of the ticket includes free public transport to the stadium from certain areas. Membership of the Gelsenkirchen club costs him 96 euros (�£86). Bayern's space-age Allianz Arena "In England, the Glazers are allowed to come in, while Portsmouth can have four owners in a season. That cannot happen in Germany," Dykes told BBC Sport. "The German model means Bayern are attracting lots of investment but without the risk. It's completely different from United - it's a whole different philosophy. "Bayern looked at what was happening in the United Kingdom and said: 'We don't want that to happen here'. They wanted to maintain control of the club." Arguably, this financial prudence has come at a price, having limited the ability of German clubs to compete with their big-spending English counterparts, who can offer higher wages to players, in the Champions League. Bayern were the last German side to be crowned champions of Europe in 2001, having lost to United in dramatic fashion two years earlier. English clubs have triumphed twice since 2001 and appeared in the final on six occasions in the last decade, a period in which only one other German club has reached the final, Bayer Leverkusen losing to Real Madrid in 2002. "When clubs can spend what they want, like in the Premier League, it's very difficult for German clubs to succeed," said Antonia Hagemann, project manager with the UK-based Supporters Direct organisation, which has carried out a Uefa-funded study of club ownerships and fan involvement across Europe. "But there's a fair chance that they will have the last laugh. The German model doesn't restrict success, but the Premier League has set up a 'rat race' for everyone in Europe. It sees football as a brand - it is not interested in regulation." At the heart of the German model are the fans, rather than owners or shareholders. Bundesliga clubs broke the 2bn euro (�£1.8bn) level for the first time in 2008-9 It was the seventh successive season in which an attendance record was set - averaging 42,000 a game Average ticket price: 20.79 euros (�£18.70) - about twice as much as in the Premier League The Bundesliga is the European champion of sponsorship deals - 573m euros (�£515m) Until the late 1990s, all Bundesliga clubs were 100% owned by members - fans who pay to be part of the club. However, the clubs recognised the need to compete with their European rivals and that this might not have been the best way to do it. So some, including Bayern, spun off their professional football "sections" into outside limited companies, separate from the parent club, to attract investment. Under Bundesliga rules, members must own 50% of the shares plus one extra vote of these spin-offs. This is the so-called 50+1 model, which makes it impossible for private investors to take over a club. It is this model that many view as the best in Europe - and a far cry from the Premier League, where most clubs are struggling with debt. Earlier this season, Portsmouth became the first top-flight club to go into administration. A Uefa report in February revealed that the total debt of Premier League teams - �£3.4bn - is greater than that of the rest of Europe's top-flight clubs put together. And although the Premier League clubs make up more than half of club assets in Europe, Manchester United's debt is almost more than �£150m higher than that of the 36 clubs in Germany's top two divisions. That is because Bundesliga clubs must submit information about their budgets and expected expenditure, and prove they are financially stable in order to play in the league. There are also check-ups during the season, and licences can be withdrawn. Second Division club Arminia Bielefeld were deducted four points by the Bundesliga for breaching the terms of their licence after suffering a financial shortfall and were fined 50,000 euros (�£45,000) for the violation, which they admitted in February. "I think the strict system is just one of the reasons preventing them [German clubs] from competing in the Champions League," said Michael Ashelm, of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper. You can watch Robben and Ribery for just �£11 "In the past, the German clubs had many problems with things like defunct training systems and antiquated managers. This changed a lot with a new generation of managers and coaches. "On the other hand, the financial system prevented the clubs from a disaster and allows for stable conditions - in contrast to England or Italy." And of the comparison between top-flight clubs' debt in England and Germany, he said: "You need a strong value as a club to carry such debt as Manchester United and Liverpool - and the value of Bundesliga clubs is under it. "This season Schalke had many problems with their liquidity. They have debts of about 140m euros (�£125m)." Schalke's debt accumulated from the construction of their new stadium, which was eased by a 100m (�£90m) euro sponsorship deal with Gazprom. "For a big German club, this is life-threatening," Anselm added. The German model does have its critics. Hannover 96 president Martin Kind has been a long-standing and vocal opponent of the 50+1 rule, and challenged it in the courts last year. However, 32 of the 36 Bundesliga clubs rejected his proposal. "Everyone in Germany used to look at the Premier League as the ideal model, but now the big clubs in England are in serious trouble," said Hagemann. "I tell everyone not to follow the Premier League model. Fans in England don't really have a say. "The English model is the worst model - its clubs have a perception a spending more money than they have." Tony Woodcock, the former England striker who had a spell in Germany with Cologne during the 1980s, says the financial restrictions placed on Bundesliga clubs are not necessarily a disadvantage. He believes Bayern are the "leading example" of how well run the German clubs are. "Bayern are a bit down the pecking order in terms of attracting players compared to other European teams, but they do have some top players," he said. "They have still attracted Franck Ribery, Mario Gomez and Arjen Robben - they have upped it a gear. To get them, you have to offer good rates. Bayern realise this." 606: DEBATE Financial fair play? Woodcock also believes that English clubs could learn a lesson or two from their German counterparts in how to treat their fans. "For my first training session in Cologne, 10,000 people turned up," he said. "In Germany, they welcome the fans to the training ground but in England it's like Fort Knox." A combination of reasonably priced tickets to watch the likes of Ribery and Robben strut their stuff in superb facilities ensures that Bayern fans are far happier than United supporters in the way their club is run, according to Dykes. I want Rangers to compete with the big boys of Europe, it can be done and for me it should be done, but we need the European authorities to make sure the step in footballs evolution is done on a level financial playing field and not left simply to the markets to decide.

:spl: Those or the bill, depending which is the more expensive:drink:

Useful things Haunbags, it's always the first thing thrown when accountants fall out:whistle::fish:

There's a song you missed there Wabash, 'When two tribes go to war' :fish:

Originally Posted by carson1912 I joined Gersnet because I often agree with Frankie's outlook on things and the dignity he posts it with. This is the sort of guy who should be leading the RST. Yeah I'm a bit of a "Frankie Fan" too (of his online work as i have never met the guy) how about we get some t-shirts done up with the words "Frankie says" or "Frankie says relax"

Yes i agree what you ARE saying about becoming involved with the politics of the RST\FF, i don't want to make it personal as i have never met nor know any of the names mentioned in the debates over the forums. I readily admit being naive when it comes to the politics of working with the higher profile Rangers supporter. One name does seem to be an recurring thyme throughout the debates, Why if that person is so secure in his good practices and behaviour does not prove it by asking the membership for a vote of confidence or stepping down from the board on the point of principle of his innocence of any wrongdoings, then standing again for re-election on an platform of his previous good work and history and let the membership decide, is beyond me. That course of action would take some of the momentum out of the debate and would settle one way or another most of the calls for his removal or alternatively cement his place on the board, or i am being naive again?

As a member of seven or more Rangers forums i have been reading the threads over the various sites and the common denominator is general mistrust of the RST/FF. I have linked those two organisations together because to the vast majority of ordinary supporters over the forums see those two groups as one and the same, the informed supporter knows well that they are not one but two supposedly separated entities, but because of their close cooperation it has become difficult to fathom when one group interests begin and the other group interests end? Unfortunately FF does receive some bad press and is disliked by many supporters over the forums for whatever reason? (and i say that as a member of FF) I believe the RST receives some of the bad feelings directed towards FF as an direct result of their close working relationship. I am not, nor have never been an member of the RST, i have no axe to grind or agenda. But I believe in it's aims (or what i believe to be their aims) namely to get supporter ownership of our club, Sadly having followed the debacle over the last week i feel the RST board has lost any credibility it had, The board have admitted to bad practises and have formulated ideas to rectify them, again however i am sorry to say that for me as an outsider looking in it goes no way far enough to pacify it's members. I feel the only way for the RST to gain any credibility and respect back is for the board to resign en masse. Then hopefully re-elect a new board to take it forward with fresh ideas and momentum.

If there's anything to it, it will be the finance side of the proposed housing/retail developments around Ibrox? Or the start of a new round of misinformation.

I am in support of fans ownership but realise it's an impossible dream unless there is some multi millionaire out there willing to underwrite our aspirations. However i think the supporters could and should aim for some form of genuine representation on the Rangers board, not just there at the behest of others or tolerated to message our ego's. but real participation in the decision making process at board level. Our contribution to the running of the club can only come from us buying our way into the corridors of power, money talks and doors open with it. So we must therefore raise the necessary financial clout to have our voice heard. I have no argument for or against the RST as i am not an member and have not taken part in this debate as the arguments are none of my business. But as an outsider looking in i feel the RST in it's present form is mortally wounded, however something good could be salvaged from their ruins, without sounding mercenary they allegedly have some good funds which could be used as an foundations to any new phoenix raised from their ashes. This could be used to gain the supporters the voice to help in the future direction of our club, Many supporters over the various forums are saying they are prepared to contribute to an fund for this purpose of purchasing our way to board level, whether this fund could be continued in the present manner by purchasing shares or agreeing to allow a portion of the fund each year for an contributing too the general financial running of our club. We have an ambassador in waiting to represent the supporters, Walter Smith is retiring from football management next year, but he may be persuaded to represent our aspiration as head of or administrator of this fund?

I think there's a clue given here from Mr McIntyre report as to what might happen with SDM and the areas ready for redevelopment around Ibrox. In conjunction with Glasgow City Council and Glasgow Housing Association, a number of options are currently being explored regarding the potential development and regeneration of land adjacent to Ibrox stadium. The wider community will be involved and consulted in the planning process once specifics on mixed use and financial returns have been agreed between the main parties. DONALD C. MCINTYRE, Finance Director 22 September 2010 10

'The current financial climate' does not seam to curtail SDM's latest proposed building projects in Edinburgh, Kirkcaldy, London, totaling some �£1.5bn, can't see him missing an opportunity on the clubs doorstep?.

They don't use the word Hun in any sense in a jocular fashion, it's an insult pure and simple. I use words like filth, scum, reptiles to describe them because that's what i know them to be. Their Hun is there equivalent of my aforementioned words. How many Journalists would use my words when referring to them? double standards again, they can use what names they want when referring to us, but we are only supposed to call them Tims. But that word is used as a term of endearment between them and goes no where near describing their IRA murdering terrorist, child abusing denial, British Soldier and rememberance Sunday hatred, lying, cheating club, supporters.

I don't understand that how an winning club like Rangers (OK if your a club that has no chance of silverware, like Scumtic last year) does not make more money in the second half of the season with extra games in the various cup runs (with TV add ons etc) plus fees for winning said cup and league?

Feels like it at times (financially speaking)

Quote, The debt has come down but we are still paying for past transfers. That means, if we make �£10m it doesn't automatically come off the total of our debt. The only query i have with that statement is, did Rangers not make provision in last years accounts to clear off ALL remaining debts owed to other clubs for players transfers ABOUT �£8MIL, which was shown in the accounts and accounted for then. We have not bought a player for two years so how can we still owing monies to other clubs???

Great idea if Bullard and Ally are gonna form a double act at Jongleurs, bad idea if Bullard is gonna play football for Rangers.

something ruffled his feathers.

Can we not report their vile supporters association to UEFA OR FIFA for racist or bigoted statements. If the boot was on the other foot they would complain about us, as they have done on previous occasions. So let us use the law and the authorities against them.

I have no axe to grind with any supporters group, except to say they all continue to do a pretty poor job of understanding the aspirations of the rank and file Bear. Or on what we are prepared to commit financially to achieving supporter representation and or partial ownership of our club?

I am Really enjoying the debate about the lack of leadership and direction from our various supporters groups. Going round the various forum as I do, I believe the rank and file Bears feel their voice and aspirations are not being heard at any level. Whether this be in the corridors and offices of power at Ibrox, or at committee level of our supporters groups. Debates like this one are few and far between, Someone must get our voice and ideas heard to the powers that be and to the movers and shakers like your good selves. If someone or some group could get their ideas for fan representation into some form of draft document. Then get this document out to all Rangers forums as an sounding board to the general support. I feel this document would be well received from our supporters and some good ideas could then be discussed and thought out, then added to the document for return to it�s originators for further update. This would have the triple effect of letting the rank and file Bear feel they have had some involvement in any initiative, also that there is someone working on their behalf. Plus it would give us some hope for the future, that Hopefully one day we may get genuine participation in the future running of our beloved club.

picked this up on another frorum, think it's somewhere near the truth.

Amen to that

Does anybody know if there where any incidents in the Stadium.

Sorry guys, i will only post when i am 100% sure of what i am saying is uber sorry the best information you can get.